Thanks, Nancy! I was beginning to feel reeeeeeeeeeal lonely out here. };o)
Chris Arnzen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Newcomb" <nan_new39@...>
To: <soundofgrace@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Infant Salvation
> Hi Chris,
>
> I have read the book, and I think you did a good job of upholding some of
> the biblical arguments used in it. The part about the Bible speaking to
> people being damned for their deeds is documented in the book. He also
does
> not deny that we all inherit the sin of Adam.
>
> He does an excellent job with the story of David, and he brought up things
I
> had never thought about. He says that David was obviously comforted when
> the baby died. He did not act like a person who would have been thinking
> that their baby was in a place of torment.
>
> As to why so many Calvinists are hostile to this view, I don't know
either,
> but John MacArthur includes a short section written by Phil Johnson in one
> of his lessons about a man whose child died in infancy, and he seemed to
> think there was something meritorious about believing his own child had
gone
> to hell. Every chance he had he would bring up how he and his wife had
come
> to grips with the fact that their child was simply not among the elect.
The
> man was certain that if God had elected that infant, he would have kept
him
> alive long enough to bring him to faith. Phil replied that he would have
> just as much biblical warrant to conclude that if God had decided NOT to
> elect the child, He would have kept him on earth long enough for the
child's
> heart to be hardened by sin and for his rebellion to be shown through
> deliberate actions. Then he reiterates that whenever Scripture describes
> the inhabitants of hell, it always does so with lists of sins and
> abominations they have deliberately committed.
>
> Towards the beginning JM talks about a panel he was on at a conference
with
> three other pastors, and they were asked "What happens to babies when they
> die?" The other three said they didn't know. He was dismayed and says in
> the book, "How can a person be a pastor and not have an answer to that
> question? How can a pastor even offer counsel or encouragement to those
who
> experience the loss of a child unless he or she has answers to the
concerns
> of a grieving heart?"
>
> I highly recommend the book. It is very thorough, and if you know someone
> who is grieving the death of a baby, I can only say that I think it would
be
> a wonderful gift to give them.
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
>
> >From: Chris Arnzen <carnzen@...>
> >Reply-To: soundofgrace@...
> >To: soundofgrace@...
> >Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Infant Salvation
> >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 13:31:11 -0500
> >
> >I haven't read MacArthur's book on infant salvation, but I have read some
> >of Spurgeon's thoughts and he (even as a very solid, staunch Calvinist)
> >believed all children dying in the state of infancy will be in Heaven. I
am
> >not certain why a Calvinist would be so hostile toward this view,
*unless*
> >it is being taught that: A) All infants who die will enter Heaven because
> >they are "innocent" and "pure" (and therefore don't need to be saved, as
> >some Campbellites and others teach), or B) God would be unjust to damn
> >infants who die. I only have sympathy for (and tend to personally lean
> >toward) the view that God does not permit unelect infants to die, and it
is
> >not purely due to emotionally-driven beliefs that I lean this way.
> >
> >Although I believe we all at conception inherit the sin of Adam, are
worthy
> >of hell and need the blood of Christ to cover us, I don't know of any
> >biblical passage describing hell in which anyone is sent there solely for
> >possessing Adam's sin. Every passage that I can recall specifically
> >mentions those who are being sent there are being damned for their wicked
> >DEEDS.
> >
> >I am also not certain why many Calvinists who reject that all dead
infants
> >are among the elect reject 2 Sam.12:23 as a support that all dead infants
> >are of the elect, where David, speaking of his dead son, said: "But now
he
> >is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I SHALL GO
TO
> >HIM, but he shall not return to me." I have heard from some that David's
> >statement "I shall go to him" is not referring to Heaven but merely the
> >grave. I am not certain why David would have found comfort in that (it
> >appears he is now in a state of comfort and peace since he ceased fasting
> >and weeping).
> >
> >I know there are basically 4 views on this among Calvinists: 1.) The
> >agnostic view (we cannot know for certain either way since the Scriptures
> >are not clear on this point), 2.) There certainly will be elect infants
in
> >Heaven and nonelect infants in hell, 3.) ALL infants who God permits to
die
> >are among the elect and certainly will go to Heaven, and 4.) NO dead
infant
> >is among the elect, and therefore, ALL infants who die certainly are
going
> >to hell. I know of one Christian who believes the 4th: NO child dying in
> >infancy is of the elect and is therefore in hell, since, in his opinion,
> >the infant cannot have faith, a biblical requirement for salvation. I
> >reminded him of how the infant John the Baptist, while still in his
> >mother's womb, must have been supernaturally given the gift of faith by
our
> >Sovereign God even in that preborn condition because he lept for JOY
while
> >in the presence of the preborn Christ in Mary's womb, and I stated that
> >perhaps God gives this gift of faith to elect children He has ordained to
> >die in infancy (and even to others who live to adulthood that He has
> >ordained to follow Christ from their earliest childhood without ever
going
> >through an openly rebellious, unchristian stage). He rejected that
argument
> >of mine.
> >
> >Are you who reject that all dead infants are among the elect saying that
> >even CHRISTIAN parents who grieve the death of a very young child or
infant
> >cannot find *doubtless* comfort in Paul's words in 1 Thes.4:13-18?: "But
we
> >do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep,
so
> >that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14) For if we
> >believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him
> >those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15) For this we say to you by the
> >word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of
the
> >Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord
> >Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the}
> >archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise
> >first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together
with
> >them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be
> >with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words."
> >
> >As far as "the age of accountability" is concerned, don't ALL Baptistic
> >Christians believe in this in *some* form or another? Of course, we
> >rightfully REJECT the FALSE notion in an "age of accountability" that
makes
> >a child previously safe from damnation suddenly in risk of damnation due
to
> >his or her ability to choose or reject Christ (since we as Calvinists all
> >agree that ALL men, infants and adults alike, deserve damnation). But if
we
> >are honest as Baptistic brethren, we believe there is an "age of
> >accountability" where a child reaches a stage where he or she can make a
> >credible profession of faith in order for him or her to be baptized and
> >receive the Lord's Supper. I think we have to be careful with how we word
> >our protests to an "age of accountability" lest we begin to sound like
> >paedobaptists or paedocommunionists.
> >
> >Merry Christmas!!!
> >Chris Arnzen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
> providers now. https://broadband.msn.com
>
>
> --
> Read the Sound of Grace pages at
> http://www.soundofgrace.com
>
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to
<soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...>
>
> To view our online archive go to our web page at
> http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace
>
>
>
>