Chris: "If I was driven by "sentimentality" I would also become an annihilationist, or better yet, a universalist" It sounds like you are a paedo-universalist! So at what age do saved children become unsaved? Chris Arnzen <carnzen@...> wrote: [Chris (from previous post)]> > I don't believe this is a paedobaptist argument > > at all, since Christ was not baptizing these little children in the > passage, > > nor was any of His disciples. [Chad]> Have you read what the paedobaptists say about this passage? I have yet to > see any of them suggest that Christ was baptizing little children in the > passage. What he is affirming, in their system, is covenantal children who > are given the promises and blessings of the kingdom by the mere fact that > they are children of the covenant. [Chris] I am merely saying that the fact that Christ and His disciples did NOT baptize these children speaks loudly against paedobaptism to me, not that the majority of paedobaptists claim that there were baptisms performed in this passage. [Chris (from previous post)]> > I am finding it quite interesting to see > > how tenaciously and passionately brethren are to attack the view of infant > > salvation, even when some are merely agnostic over it. Why does it bother > > you so very much that I and other Calvinists have been convinced by the > > Scriptures that infants and little children will not populate hell > > (especially the agnostics--just because you are not convinced either way, > it > > should not bother you quite so much that some of us are)? [Chad]> I think this is a fair question... I cannot speak for the rest, but it > grieves me to know that some parents in our flocks are being given > unwarranted comfort when the only comfort to give is Christ himself. I > wholeheartedly believe that Christ is slighted in your view... I guess > that's why my "agnosticism" in this instance is a little more passionate > than it would be for the color of church carpet. :-) [Chris] Christ is slighted by reciting 1 Thes.4:13-18 to give comfort???? Would Christ be slighted if I did the same in regard to an adult loved one of a friend who dies that I believe is with Christ???? If I believe dead infants are with Christ I don't believe I am slighting Him at all. Although His Sovereignty should be our chief comfort, it is not the only message of comfort the Scriptures give. 1 Thes.4:13-18 specifically says "comfort one another with THESE THINGS" (those who are asleep are with Christ and will rise and return with Him). [Chad]> Again... to paraphrase what I wrote yesterday...the only hope we can give > parents of infants is on the chance that if their infant died "in Christ" > then that infant is "with Christ". It is an emphasis on sentimentality, > rather on Christ, that is giving these parents assurance and comfort. Such > a desire is a misplaced focus on the > child's destiny and has become that parent's "sufficiency" or "satisfaction" > rather than in Christ himself. [Chris] But you are speaking as one who does not have certainty in the destiny of deceased infants. I believe the Scriptures do give me certainty, and I take offense by your imputing a motive to my beliefs which I do not accept as true. As I said earlier, it is not "sentimentality" driving me to this conclusion. If I was driven by "sentimentality" I would also become an annihilationist, or better yet, a universalist (I am not a parent, but I can imagine that the grieving process could be infinitely greater for a Christian parent who loses an older child who they had more time to know and love deeply, especially if the child was in open rebellion to Christ before death--I am not so sentimental that I would candy-coat the truth to such a grieving parent). We as Baptists reject infant baptism because the Scriptures describe who the proper candidates for baptism is, and they are totally absent of any example of an infant baptism. I have the same evidence for my views of hell. I reject the notion that infants are there because the Scriptures only describe wicked individuals who are conscious rebels being tormented there for there *deeds* (not solely due to inherited Adamic sin), and are totally absent of any example of an infant being tormented there. [Chad] Ultimately, I must place my satisfaction in > Christ, the Supreme Judge, who is always good and always judges rightly. If > "good" and "rightly" means my child goes to hell I must place my > satisfaction with that decision in Christ. The comfort for the parent is > that the child is in the hands of Christ who is good and righteous. [Chris] Agreed, but if one believes the Scriptures offer additional comfort to that truth, there is no reason to withhold it. You would not be so ambiguous about the destiny of the deceased while offering comfort to mourners who lost a loved one you were certain was a Christian. I have that same confidence from Scripture about the destiny of deceased infants. [Chad]> As for Spurgeon, as a systematician he was brilliant (not to mention his > unparalleled oratory). But I tend to find his biblical theology lacking at > times (allowing the whole of the scripture to inform the exegesis). But > that's just my opinion. [Chris] And that is why I look to no uninspired writer as an infallible guide but to the Scriptures alone as an inerrant authority. -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square