Hi Ian,
In my mind, I cannot imagine a God that does not get what He wants. Period. God is not disappointed in His eternal plan. He is not sitting back in heaven watching the world events fly by as a mere spectator we can all agree. But is He involved with every little detail of every event? I believe God has actively decreed everything that comes to pass. I believe that He decreed that I would sit here this Sunday morning and type on my computer this very message.
Two wills of God? I've read enough from various theologians to see that there really isn't much agreement on this topic. One theologian might write that there is a "revealed" will and a "secretive" will. Another writes that God's wills are "permissive" and "decretive". Another writes that God has SEVEN wills of God! Now I don't know about you, but I find all of that to be pretty confusing.
Since I believe God always gets what He wants, I have to believe that His will is always decretive. If God wants to wipe out the religion of Islam in one day, He will do that. If God wants to take His elect home to Him in Glory, He will do that. If God wants to call His elect out of their sins, He will do that. God is not frustrated by any mere human event - but instead is the active agent in them. To say that God doesn't get what He wants is to state that things are left to "chance" and God isn't in complete control. The reply to that is that God gets what He wants and what He doesn't want. That He has a secret will and His other will is decretive or revealed. I don't buy that balogna.
If God's secret will is that He desires all men without exception to be saved and His other will is that only the elect will be saved, then God's wills are in conflict with each other. God is actively involved in frustrating Himself! This is an illogical representation of God. Will God remorse when He sends the reprobate to hell? I don't think so! I think God will get exactly what He wants and the saints will gather around his throne and glorify him shouting, "Alleluia! And her smoke rises up forever and ever!"
God will be glorified in every single event that comes to pass. His will is not frustrated, and God is a perfectly rational, intellectual Sovereign King who gets what He wants... ALWAYS.
The question that arises is always, well then does God decree sin? My answer is shocking. Yes, I believe God's will is the first cause of all sin. God is not the CHARGEABLE cause of sin, but He is indeed the first cause. Men are the secondary cause of sin, and are therefore responsible. God decreed from all of eternity that man would fall into sin, and man's motivation for sinning is to rob glory from God. God in causing men to sin is not guilty of sin because in His decree, His motivation would be to bring glory to Himself. However, sin does not take place unless God actively decrees it, otherwise Scriptures like this not make sense...
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John Calvin wrote the following concerning God's will that I think is appropriate to this topic: God's will is, and rightly ought to be, the cause of all things that are. For if it has any cause, something must precede it, to which it is, as it were, bound; this is unlawful to imagine. For God's will is so much the highest rule of righteosness that whatever he wills, by the very fact that he wills it, must be considered righteous. When, therefore, one asks why God has so done, we must reply: because he has willed it. But if you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God's will, which cannot be found. (Calvin, Institutes, III.xxiii.2)
Warfield wrote: That anything - good or evil - occurs in God's universe finds its account . . . in His positive ordering and active concurrence; while the moral quality of the deed, considered in itself, is rooted in the moral character of the subordinate agent, acting in the circumsatnces and under the motives operative in each instance . . . . Thus all things find their unity in His eternal plan; and not their unity merely, but their justification as well; even the evil, though retaining its quality as evil and hateful to the holy God, and certain to be dealt with as hateful, yet does not occur apart from His provision or against His will, but appears in the world which He has made only as the instrument by which He works for the highter good. (Benjan B. Warfield, "Predestination," in Biblical and Theological Studies, pp 283-84.)
Robert Reymond in his book, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, wrote: The one living and true God, the Bible says, is the absolutely sovereign Ruler of the universe (Pss. 103:19; 115:3; 135:6). Beside the fact that it is God who created the universe according to his eternal purpose in the first place, the Bible teaches that by his providence he oversees both it and all things in it. He works all things after the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11). He causes all things to work together for good (conformity to Christ's image) for those who love him, for those who are called according to his purpose (Rom. 8:28). From him and through him and to him are all things (Rom 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6) -- from the raising up and deposing of earthly kings to the flight and fall of the tiny sparrow (Dan. 4:31-32; Matt. 10:29), from the determiniation of the times and boundaries of the earth's nations to the number of hairs on a man's head (Acts 17:26; Matt. 10:30). (p. 356)
...I would suggest the following as the only possible direction in which to look for a biblical and thus a defensible theodicy: The ultimate end which God decreed he regarded as great enough and glorious enough that it justified to himself both the divine plan itself and the ordained incidental evil arising the foreordained path to his plan's great and glorious end. But is there, indeed, can there be such an end? Yes, indeed there is such an end. Paul can declare: "I consider that our present suffereings [which are ordained of God; the reader is referred to 2 Cor. 11:23-33 adn 12:7-10 for a sampling of Paul's sufferings] are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us"; and again: "our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all" (Rom 8:16; 2 Cor 4:17; 1 Cor 2:7). And what is that anticipated and destined end for us? It is this: Someday the elect will be conformed to the image of Christ -- our highest good
according to Romans 8:28-29. But our conformity to Christ's likeness is not the "be all and end all" of God's eternal purpose. We have not penetrated God's purpose sufficiently if we conclude that we are the center of God's purpose or that his purpose terminates finally upon us by accomplishing our glorification. Rather, our glorification is only the means to a higher, indeed, the highest end conceivable - "that God's Son [N.B.: not Adam] might be the Firstborn [that is, might occupy the place of higest honor] among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29), and all to the praise of God's glorious grace (Eph. 1:6,10,12,14; 2:7). (pg. 376-377)
Have a blessed Lord's Day!
Brandan
Ian Major <ian.major@...> wrote:
Yes, Chris, I agree that it may not be so simple as some of our brethren
make out. I've just listened to a lecture on the will/s of God by a
Protestant Reformed Church minister. A gracious presentation by a good
brother. But it left me with the question , If God has only one will, and
it must indeed come to pass, does this mean He does not desire my abstention
from every sin, every day? Since that does not come to pass, either our God
has a will that He is pleased not to enforce and a will He does enforce, or
He does not want me to be holy day by day. I cannot see the latter being
true. Maybe Brandan can enlighten? Thanks.
In Him
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B. McKinney"
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] Arminianism Raises Its ugly head....tonight
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brandan Kraft [mailto:bkraft@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 8:48 PM
> >
> > I think the solution is fairly logical...
> >
> > IF God desired all men without exception to be saved...
> >
> > Well, they would be, wouldn't they?
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> God might have desires that conflict with each other; in such cases, there
> would have to be some way to judiciate between his conflicting desires.
One
> desire might take precedence over another when they conflict, or some
third
> principle might determine on a case-by-case basis which takes precedent.
>
> Consider, for example, how God's desire for justice must be harmonized
with
> his desire to show mercy or grace.
>
> Maybe say, "If God desired all men without exception to be saved more than
> he desired anything else..."
>
> Chris
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