Steve, Thanks for the apology, and I definitely forgive you. In Christ, Nancy >From: "Steve Fuchs (on MSN)" <SteveF_MS@...> >Reply-To: soundofgrace@... >To: <soundofgrace@...> >Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] Infant Salvation >Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:29:43 -0800 > >I think I might have been the first one to use the word 'shallow' in my >posts on this topic, and because of that I must ask forgiveness from both >Chris and Nancy if it made you feel attacked. > >It seemed a useful description for comparing comfort from a derived idea >that is at least debatable, with comfort being Christ himself. > >None-the-less, I offended both of you. >Will you forgive me. > >Steve > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Arnzen [mailto:carnzen@...] >Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 9:00 AM >To: soundofgrace@... >Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Infant Salvation > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Nancy Newcomb" <nan_new39@...> >To: <soundofgrace@...> >Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:46 PM >Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Infant Salvation > > > > Chris, > > > > That was an awesome post. I too find it grievous to have motives > > impugned over this belief. In my own life, and in various situations, > > I have found that Christ offers comfort through many means, although > > He is the source >of > > the comfort. I think that having a hope of the resurrection that is > > tied >to > > the hope of others who Christ died for is much more glorious than if I > > was to have hope for myself only. Why? Because God designed it that > > way. As believers we are to comfort one another by these words. I'm > > thankful to >be > > able to share the good news of Jesus--who shows grace towards their > > infants--with grieving parents. > > > > Still "shallowly" comforted by His promises, > > Nancy > >[Chris] Thanks, Nancy! Your post comforted me. I guess that makes me REALLY >shallow. };o) > > > > > > >From: Chris Arnzen <carnzen@...> > > >Reply-To: soundofgrace@... > > >To: soundofgrace@... > > >Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Infant Salvation > > >Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:31:38 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's shallow comfort for a parent to rest in believing he'll see > > > > his > > >child > > > > again. (whether it's true or not) > > > > His comfort must be totally in Christ, and the trial of losing a > > > > child > > >is > > >an > > > > exercise in stretching his faith to that end. > > > > > > > > >[Chris] Okay, folks, I am ending my part in the discussion here. I am > > >simply tired of seeing the motives for my beliefs impugned. I am > > >amazed that >many > > >of my brethren are insinuating that I, and brethren such as myself > > >(including Spurgeon) who believe we can extend biblical comfort to > > >those Christian parents mourning the loss of an infant by reminding > > >them of the promises given by the inspired Apostle Paul in 1 > > >Thes.4:13-18, are merely offering shallow comfort, even though we are > > >biblically convinced in >infant > > >salvation (even if you disagree with our conclusions). Most of you > > >making these passionate protests, with few exceptions, are agnostics > > >over the issue any way, which means in the long run, when all is said > > >and done, WE MIGHT BE > > >*RIGHT*!!! I cannot help but believe that much of this sentiment stems >from > > >an arrogant form of Hyper-Calvinistic piety, that insists that if > > >anyone seeks comfort in ANYTHING else, other than Christ being in > > >Sovereign control over all events, he or she is a shallow Christian. > > >If this was true, then Paul would never have offered his words of > > >comfort even to those mourning the loss of adult Christian loved ones > > >in 1 Thes.4:13-18. Otherwise, he would have merely said, "Do not > > >concern yourself, brothers, about those >who > > >have fallen asleep, because knowing they are at peace with the Savior > > >for all eternity is not where you are to receive comfort. That's > > >God's business, so just mind your own business. Just trust in the > > >fact that God will do what > > >is right in regard to their eternal destiny. If you concern yourself >about > > >anything less than the Person of Christ you are being shallow and > > >man-centered." But our tender and compassionate God did not say that > > >in >His > > >Word. Obviously the Person of Christ must be our chief focus in EVERY >area > > >of thought, and the main source of our comfort in any trial, but *HE* > > >offered additional (not superior or even equal) comfort. *HE* is the > > >one who inspired Paul to remind us about departed Christian loved > > >ones rising >again > > >and returning with Him as a powerful source of comfort. It is one > > >thing >to > > >disagree with my conclusions that infants who die will not be > > >tormented >in > > >hell. It is entirely another thing to insinuate that my belief in >offering > > >comfort to mourners who grieve the loss of an infant with SCRIPTURAL > > >promises is shallow. As I have repeated many times, I am not merely > > >drive >n > > >by mushy-gushy Hallmark Card sentiment to draw my conclusions. I just >have > > >not as of yet been biblically convinced that infants will be > > >tormented in hell for the very same reasons I have not as of yet been > > >biblically convinced that they are proper candidates for baptism. > > >Just as the Scriptures teach who the proper candidates for baptism > > >are, and why, when and how they are to be baptized, they also teach > > >who those who are tormented in hell are, and why they are being > > >tormented (for their deeds). I see no infants mentioned in either > > >category. > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Read the Sound of Grace pages at > > >http://www.soundofgrace.com > > > > > >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to > > ><soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...> > > > > > >To view our online archive go to our web page at > > >http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local > > high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com > > > > > > -- > > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to ><soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...> > > > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > > > > > > > >-- >Read the Sound of Grace pages at >http://www.soundofgrace.com > >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to ><soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...> > >To view our online archive go to our web page at >http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > >-- >Read the Sound of Grace pages at >http://www.soundofgrace.com > >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to ><soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...> > >To view our online archive go to our web page at >http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963