Harry
Thanks for the timely interjection. Whenever I have heard folk debating this
passage, the emphasis always seems to be on the procedural aspect and the
last phrase hardly gets a look in. How do you understand "treat him as you
would a pagan or a tax collector" to mean? The Brethren movement & others
have latched on to this last phrase and have used it to ostracise the
"culprit" are they correct?
Blessings
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: H Dorrington [mailto:hjdinfl@...]
Sent: 29 January 2004 18:27
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] Matthew 18:15-17
Can you have Mt 18:15-17 without Gal 6:1&2?
Galatians 6
1Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual
should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest
you too be tempted. 2Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of
Christ.
Sometimes a person is so hurt, angry, and/or frustrated that repentance
isn't the first thing on his or her mind. Sometimes it takes a while for a
person to look at what they have done and say they were wrong. Yes
unrepentance requires disciplne but our goal should be restoration in a
spirit of gentleness according to Paul.
Harry
"Steve Fuchs (on MSN)" <SteveF_MS@...> wrote:
Just to clarify;
If the church representation attempts to meet, or set up a meeting with the
offender, and he refuses to comply, they have witnessed his/her
unrepentance. He has refused to give the 'church' a listen on the matter.
Refusing to hear advice is the same as ignoring advice given.
By this stage, it isn't so much about the offense anymore as it is about
repentance.
The discipline that follows is all about the lack of repentance. The
original offense is immaterial. The discipline is not for the offense. The
only offense that's disciplined is unrepentance.
Sin doesn't make a Christian a hypocrite, because perfection is not the mark
of a believer.
Lack of repentance does indicate (possible) hypocrisy, because repentance is
a mark of the regenerate soul.
The unregenerate soul will not properly repent. He cannot.
If a brother/sister will not repent, he or she needs to be treated as
unregenerate because that is exactly how they are behaving.....possibly
because they are.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Fuchs (on MSN) [mailto:SteveF_MS@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:36 AM
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] Matthew 18:15-17
I'm not a theologian, so I may be wrong, but the way the scripture reads to
me is that one must keep appealing to a larger band of (respected) Christian
witnesses. So the 'church' may be the entire body, or an appropriate
representation of the body, such as all/most of the elders/officers/whatever
they are called. However, the purpose of the witnesses is always to
objectively observe the interaction, making sure both parties are fair and
respectable. Establishing that the accusation is true and merited (not
trivial), and at the same time observing the heart of the offender.
Considering all that, if a situation gets to step 3, it's often unlikely the
offender is willing to come to a church meeting where the whole congregation
is, and even taking a large enough representation (leaders, etc.) of the
church to the person can be difficult. But somehow, the church
representatives need to observe the tone and merit of the accusation, as
well as the tone and sincerity of the response.
It potentially could be done via a conference telephone call, (though it's
not recommended). If the invitation and it's rejection is witnessed by the
church representation so as to establish that the rejection is really
unrepentance, then the church as a witness/advisor has done it's job.
So, just like step 2 requires the offended to approach respectable
'witnesses' before bringing them, so step 3 requires the offended (and 2 or
3 witnesses) to approach an appropriate representation of the church to set
up the meeting.
Otherwise, bringing it up by surprise would be 'blind-sighting' the brother
or sister. Proper, respectable, scriptural dealing with such matters is why
there are witnesses. If you blind-sight someone, you'll have become an
offender yourself.
The difference I think is that it's really 3 parts.
A) Inform and coordinate with the church representation to raise the issue
(and giving the offender proper notice that this is happening according to
the scriptural instructions - it's hard for them to argue it when you just
say 'You know what the book of Mat says I must do next')
B) Confront the individual with appropriate representation of the 'church'
as witnesses
C) If the church representation agrees the accusation has merit, and the
offender is unrepentant, then the exclusion from fellowship is communicated
to every last individual of the body.
The follow-up question about the offender being a pastor is only different
in that obtaining appropriate church representation is a littler more
difficult and sticky. BUT, the importance of not blind-sighting the
offender is even more obvious.
I pray that helps.
I've been through this with a good friend, and I know it's gut-wrenching on
everyone involved.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: James Beals [mailto:jbeals@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:33 AM
To: soundofgrace@...
Cc: jclemens@...
Subject: [soundofgrace] Matthew 18:15-17
Friends:
As you can see from the subject, my question is related to the passage in
Matthew that we are all familiar with.
--------------------------------------------------------
15 Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault
between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the
mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." 17 And if he
refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses
even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax
collector.
- NKJV
--------------------------------------------------------
NB - Most of the translations seem to read very similar to the above.
I put it to you this way:
I am aware of a situation where the first two "steps" of the "Matthew 18"
process have been followed without success.
... that being:
1. Offended party goes to offending party and seeks reconciliation
(without success).
2. Offended party goes to offending party "with one or two more" and seeks
reconciliation (without success).
In the event that the process is followed through to "step three", ... that
being: 3. Offended party "tells it the church".
My question is this:
Is verse 17 above describing two distinct events or gatherings?
- One (the first) where the Offended party "tells it to the church" with
the Offending party ABSENT from that meeting... and
- Two (the second) where the church delivers their message to the
Offending party where he/she subsequently "refuses to hear".
----- OR -----
Is verse 17 above describing a single event or gathering? where:
- the Offended party "tells it to the church" with the Offending party
PRESENT where he/she subsequently "refuses to hear".
This as a practical question with practical implications so please be
practical in your advice / exigesis.
I realize this may spawn more questions than answers, which in itself may
be useful, but right now I am looking for the "answers".
My concern is for the truth and that the Scriptures be "rightly divided"
and applied and the Lord obeyed.
in Christ,
Jamie Beals
Ottawa
PS I will read your reply posts on the SOG chat group, but if you wish,
please also feel free to reply to me directly at jbeals@... PPS
Here is a follow-up question: Would you treat the situation any
differently if the Offending party was a pastor? This, of course, has
implications with respect to the "removal of a pastor" in the same way that
it has implications with respect to the "removal of a member".
--
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