H Dorrington <hjdinfl@...> wrote: >If Mac is defining being innocent as such is he also declaring them exempt from original >sin? No. Sandwiched in-between his defense of "moral culpability" is his affirmation of original sin. >If the historical context can mean free or exempt from obligations, cannot one be >innocent without being free from original sin? Mac seems to feel no compulsion to answer this obvious question. But his implied claim is that the two are unrelated... ultimately leading to this explicit claim: no one was ever sent to hell merely for having a sin nature. >I can see using the free or exempt from obligations meaning to say there was an age of >accountability when a jewish child became obligated but I see no carry over to the new >covenant. The "children" of the New Covenant, which is the ultimate meaning of Christ's words to the disciples denying children access to Christ, are the "heirs" and "sons of God". All New Covenant members are "children", the eschatological fulfillment of the OC's "children of the covenant", via our union to THE "Son of God". "We" are the children of the New Covenant... something not only lost on those who bring circumcision into the NC via paedobaptism, but apparenlty lost on those who make the arguments that MacArthur does. Chad Bresson Xenia, OH "Chad R. Bresson" wrote: "Innocent" as Mac understands it, is freedom from moral culpability. Chad Bresson Xenia, OH H Dorrington wrote: Are children (pagan children) innocent? What did it mean to be innocent? "free or exempt from obligations" hqn, yqn Is that a reference to the Mosaic law? If so then can you not be both innocent and still a sinner? Do you need the Mosaic law to be still a sinner under Adam? Question I think we would need to work through to come to any conclusion. Harry "Steve Fuchs (on MSN)" wrote: Interesting. When I read Jer 19, I don't see him talking about pagan kids: Jer 19:3 says: You shall say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem." That indicates He's talking to his own people, I think. It goes on: Jer 19:4 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent 5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind; He's talking to His people about turning to other God's, 'whom their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known' and 'which I never commanded or spoke of'. Again, these are not pagan children sacrificed that he's calling innocent blood. It's the children of God whom are called innocent. Looking at Ezekiel I see the same thing: Ezek 16:20 "you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter 21 that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?" These are God's people's children, whom 'you had borne to me...you slaughtered my children'. He's speaking to his own people about their turning away from Him into whoredom. I'll grant that the Jonah passage is certainly talking about people God created in Nineveh, and the reference most likely refers to the children, but it's stretching that one verse quite far to make it solely defend a doctrine of 'all babies go to heaven.' In fact, knowing what we do from the rest of the redemptive story, there was a (rather large) remnant of elect in Nineveh God had chosen to convert. He was teaching Jonah (and us) that His people are not chosen from just one nation or blood line. God was speaking about people he'd chosen. Not non-elect pagans. It appears that even a great man like MacArthur sometimes reads things he wants to see into scripture, even if they aren't there. I suppose that shouldn't shock any of us. We all do it. What surprises me is that it seems to have gone completely unnoticed by many. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Newcomb [mailto:nan_new39@...] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:55 PM To: soundofgrace@... Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] RE: pagan children called 'innocents'??? Hi Steve, Having read the book, I understood John MacArthur mostly to be saying that babies, regardless of who they are born to, are referred to by God as "innocents." He quotes Ezek. 16:20-22 in speaking about babies being sacrificed to false gods. He also quotes Jonah 4:11 which says, "And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left--and much livestock?" He says that those who couldn't tell their left hand from their right were little children and those who were mentally disabled. They were clearly the object of God's pity. He has a section in chapter 3 subtitled "Children in a Heathen Culture Are 'Innocents.'" He quotes there Jeremiah 19:4-7. Nancy >From: "Steve Fuchs (on MSN)" >Reply-To: soundofgrace@... >To: >Subject: [soundofgrace] RE: pagan children called 'innocents'??? >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:39:28 -0800 > >It's interesting to me that MacArthur makes such a strong argument that >the sacrificing of 'innocents' refers to pagans, but when I looked up >the passages, Psalm 106 seems to be one of the few places it actually >says 'innocents', and yet it is not talking about the pagan children. >It is referring to Israel's adoption of pagan practices, INCLUDING the >sacrificing of Israel's children to pagan gods. > >MacArthur says: "That, as well as in the Old Testament, where God >talks about the babies who were offered to pagan gods - they were >burned in the fire as human sacrifices - He called them 'the >innocents.' If God says that little one is innocent, even though it's a >child of a pagan, offered in a pagan sacrifice - you are not talking >about a baptized baby; you're not talking about a baby who has parents >in the covenant; you're not even talking about a Jewish baby - you're >talking about a Gentile, pagan child, and it is determined by God to be >an innocent."" > >But here's the text from scripture. Note WHO it's calling >'innocents'... > >Psalm 106:35 But they (Israel) mingled with the nations (pagans) > And learned their (pagan) practices, >36 > And served their (pagan) idols, > Which became a snare to them (Israel). >37 > They (Israel) even sacrificed their (Israel's) sons and their >daughters to the demons, 38 > And shed innocent blood, > The blood of their (Israel's) sons and their (Israel's) >daughters, > Whom they (Israel) sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; > And the land was polluted with the blood. > >I couldn't find a reference where it calls the pagan children >'innocents'. Can anyone else find such a passage? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Tonn [mailto:btonn@...] >Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 2:37 PM >To: soundofgrace@... >Subject: [soundofgrace] RE: soundofgrace Digest 23 Jan 2004 23:45:03 >-0000 Issue 246 > > >FYI ... Found this article on Crosswalk.com ... not sure if it (John >MacArthur's book) was mentioned when this issue was discussed recently? > >Safe in the Arms of God: What Happens to Babies Who Die? >Janet Chismar >Senior Editor for Faith > > >Parents who have lost a child often are haunted with disturbing >questions. Why my child? Where is my baby now? Will I ever see my child >again? And it's perfectly normal. "The death of a child is the most >devastating experience a >parent can ever face," explains pastor and author John MacArthur. > > > >In his book, Safe in the Arms of God, MacArthur tackles the question of >infant death (in the womb or following birth) with compassion and >honesty. No death occurs apart from the purposes of God, MacArthur >assures readers, just as no life occurs apart from the purposes of God. > > > > > >"This book is a great tool at those times when emotions run high and >losses are felt deeply," MacArthur told Crosswalk.com in a recent >interview. "When you are struggling with the feelings, when you come to >grips with things in a more stark way, you need the anchor that comes >from the absolute truth of the word of God." > > > >Those who are grieving deserve an answer rooted in the truth of >Scripture, MacArthur notes. The parents need them, other family members >need them, friends need them, and pastors and counselors need them. > > > >Where Are They Now? > > > >"Is my baby in heaven?" It is natural for grieving parents to ask this >question. They are not alone in wondering. Many people wrestle with >what happens to children in third world nations - those who may die of >starvation without ever knowing God. What happens to aborted babies? >Where do the innocent babies of Hindus and Muslims go? > > > >The Bible teaches that all children who die are in the special care of >God, MacArthur explains. "I think one of the really great passages >along those lines is in Mark 10, where Jesus said, 'Permit the little >children to come to me and forbid them not, for such is the Kingdom of >God.' That, as well as in the Old Testament, where God talks about the >babies who were offered to pagan gods - they were burned in the fire as >human sacrifices - He called them 'the innocents.' If God says that >little one is innocent, even though it's a child of a pagan, offered in >a pagan sacrifice - you are not talking about a baptized baby; you're >not talking about a baby who has parents in the covenant; you're not >even talking about a Jewish baby - you're talking about a Gentile, >pagan child, and it is determined by God to be an innocent." > > > >MacArthur shares another illustration, that of King David in the Old >Testament. When David and Bathsheba's infant son became ill, the Bible >says David pleaded, fasted and mourned. But when the baby died, he >washed himself and no longer mourned in any sense. Then he said, "I >shall go to him, but he >cannot return to me." > > > >According to MacArthur, "David was comforted in thinking of that >reunion, but the opposite was true with Absalom. When his adult son >Absalom died, he wept and wept, and mourned and mourned, and could not >be comforted, because he knew he would never see that child again. The >difference there is pretty significant. > > > >"I think when we understand that these little ones - and the Bible >makes this very clear - belong to Him until they reach the age where >they choose, then we understand why He takes them to heaven," MacArthur >adds. > > > >The Anguish of Abortion > >Women who have aborted their babies are particularly prone to despair, >loss, >guilt and unresolved grief. They, too, may wonder where their babies are >now. > >Ezekiel 18:20 clearly states that "the son shall not bear the guilt of >the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son," MacArthur points >out. "Scripture says that babies do not have culpability for the sins >of their parents." > > > >Sadly, women who abort do not realize that long-term, emotional >devastation will follow. "When a woman is considering an abortion, she >is usually told abortion is a simple medical procedure with no lasting >side effects," says Mary Comm, founder of SafeHaven , a website created >to help women understand and deal with post-abortion syndrome. "What a >woman is not told is that abortion, like a miscarriage, can cause >tremendous feelings of loss and grief. But because abortion is a >'choice,' those feelings are multiplied." > > > >Comm started SafeHaven in 1996 after seeing how post-abortion syndrome >devastated the lives of two friends. The site is staffed entirely by >women, all who are intimately familiar with abortion and its >after-effects. Visitors to SafeHaven find a variety of links to help >guide them in their efforts to deal with post-abortion syndrome. Some >information is designed to help a post-abortive father begin to >understand his own feelings of loss, grief and regret. > > > >"The hardest thing for these women to do is reach out for help," says >Comm. "They don't know what they are feeling is common and they are >ashamed to admit they have had an abortion. At our site, they can >remain anonymous for as long as they like. They are welcome to read >messages and follow chats, and are invited to participate only when >they are comfortable doing so. Even when they do begin participating, >no one has to know who they are. > > > >"But when a woman finally decides to participate, we accept her, we >love her, and we let her know her feelings are normal," Comm adds. > > >A dedication on the SafeHaven home page reads: "For all the mothers and >fathers whose arms ache for children they will never hug; for all the >bandaged knees they will never kiss; for the college graduations and >weddings they will never celebrate, and for the grandchildren that will >never be born: this site is dedicated to them." >_________________________________________________________ >Bill Tonn Newmarket, Ontario, Canada > > >Jeremiah 9:23 This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast >of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast about this:that he understands and >knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and >righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? 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