I'll confess I'm only relying on the English, but in my estimation, God is
being exhaustive in describing the forms of other gods.

In the 1st commandment, all gods, but especially given the context of who's
speaking, supernatural beings that naturally come to mind first.  Those in
the spirit realm like Jehovah is. Real or imagined.  Foreign spirit gods
from other peoples.  Baals and the like.  Satan and his workers, as well as
other angels, but also souls gone before us (such as Mary).  Real (and
imagined) supernatural beings/spirits, though not Jehovah, not the creator,
nor on equal or greater footing with Him.  

The 2nd continues the thought, that you also not worship any god from the
physical realm by fabricating inanimate idols (gods) for yourselves from
*physical* creation.  Physical realities in the heavens (stars, moon, sun,
birds, clouds..), the earth (trees, mountains, grass, flowers, valleys,
animals, insects..), or the waters (whales, salmon, shellfish, octopi...)

The word *idol* is key.  It implies something in *physical* creation itself
being worshipped as deity.  Worshipping the physical creation in place of
the creator.  If wrong-doing can get any worse, it amounts to totally
denying the spiritual dimension in which the real God exists.  Preferring a
god limited to the physical world of all things.  

I think the curse in the rest of the 2nd commandment along with the Habakkuk
passage and the golden calf account further confirm this.  They show how
these are especially offensive to Jehovah - they are real all right, but
lifeless, MUTE, unable to even speak for heaven's sake (pardon the pun).  

Choosing to worship other supernatural beings is bad enough, but choosing a
physical, self fabricated, lifeless alternative to Jehovah is the worst kind
of insult and offense - so much so that God will punish the sin to the 3rd
and 4th generations.

This is a more natural reading of the text.  After all, the curse is part of
the second, and you didn't want to mix the two commandments together.  So
does it make as good sense that drawing an image of God for worshipping Him
would be more offensive than worshipping another god?  It's not as natural
to read it that way.

Look, Israel wouldn't even speak or write His full name, because they went
with the unnatural but precisely literal understanding.  Much like they did
with the 4th commandment about Sabbath rest.
They are rarely, if ever, a good example to follow in my opinion.

However, if we follow what I call the 'unnatural' understanding, you can't
even draw a circle and put the word 'God' in it.  Really the Jews would be
right.  I shouldn't even be putting the letters which are a picture of his
name 'Yahweh' on this page.  And we shouldn't draw a triangle to represent
the trinity.  It is a graven image representing God.
Michael Angelo's painting is also breaking the commandment because it shows
[at least part of] God.
But is anyone really worshipping the triangle, or the word 'Yahweh' on the
page, or the hand of God symbolized in the Sistine chapel, or the picture of
Christ in their children's bible?  Naive children don't even make that
mistake.

So, no, I don't think we should try to encapsulate God fully with an image
because we can never get it accurate.  He is spirit.  He has no body or
physical form which we can understand and represent fully.  But respectful
imagery, which imply God but don't try to equate him to anyone/thing else,
or attempt to completely describe him visually, can sometimes be useful for
communicating His Truth.  The triangle for instance.  Or the Sistine
chapel's arm/finger, neither of which try to encapsulate all truth of God,
but communicate an accurate truth about Him.  (He is 3 in one, and He
reaches down to man).

Now Christ is fully God, but also fully man.  He showed us himself in
physical form that we understand, and I think we can, if it's done without
unnatural addition/adornment, create full images of his humanity for the
sake of teaching about him.

The purpose for and use of the image is the critical element.
Both scenarios carry a serious condition:  That we not bow down to the
imagery, and make it a god.
That's where God places the emphasis in the commandment.  The bowing down
and worshipping carries stiff penalty to the 3rd and 4th generations.

Mel seems to have created this movie for the purpose of teaching, and
hopefully with accuracy.  The church at large certainly sees it's purpose in
that regard.  That is impossible to deny.

None-the-less, if Mel Gibson is bowing down and worshipping his film as an
idol, or anyone else worships the film or Jim Cavizel(sp?), they alone are
clearly breaking the commandment.  I just don't think this happens among
Christians or non.

This has been a good discussion.  I'm glad we had it.  It has forced me to
really work through the finer points of what we're commanded.  Thanks for
putting up with me in this, and I pray if nothing else we engaged in at
least some form of iron sharpening iron.

Grace to you brother,
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Dea5315@... [mailto:Dea5315@...] 
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:54 AM
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] faith comes by HEARING


Steve,

Again I must disagree because the 2nd commandment has 2 parts to it.  Don't
make images.  Don't bow down to them.  So essentially, you're saying it's
okay to have images, as long as we don't bow down to them.  I think you're
mixing the 1st commandment with the 2nd commandment.  You keep talking about
having no other Gods before Jehovah.  That's the first commandment.  :)  The
second commandment says not to have images.  

But can you honestly tell me that you don't see even the slightest thing
wrong with men making images of God (whether it be in movie form, or what
not) no matter how sincere their motives may be?

I think you'll agree that the "Passion" clearly has an image of Christ
present.

Just sit back and think about that for a moment.  Men making images of God
-- even though they aren't bowing down to them as you have claimed.

It just doesn't seem right.

David

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