Somehow I missed this one David, so I apologize for not responding.

I apologize for misstating your stance by poor use of words.  
I meant that you were arguing 'movies and dramas [about the Scripture Truth]
are necessarily bad'

David: So you to admit that there is a difference between using an vocal
illustration and a picture.  That's the point.  An image is visible. 

Steve: Another poor use of words.  I meant that illustrations are more than
visual images.
So, if it's just visual images you dislike, you would not have a problem
then of someone singing the book or Ephesians, set to the music of Jesus
Christ Superstar?

My point is that I agree (per my other post) that medium do add or detract
from message, but preaching sermons is a medium and it can also do this,
depending upon the preachers tone of voice, sarcasm, verbal emphasis etc.
The medium should help communicate accurately via appropriate emphasis the
meaning, but it can just as easily detract from it, even if it's just a
preacher.  That's why preachers (not preaching) can put people to sleep.
Not because God's message is boring, but because the delivery medium fails
to communicate the correct meaning well.  Words by themselves don't
necessarily do that.  If my daughter is about to step in front of a car, and
I say in a monotone voice 'stop', she'll fail to get the meaning, even
though she hears the word.  The medium's delivery is critical, be it
speaking, singing, or acting.  Even so, those without ears to hear (the
meaning) will still not perceive it.  But those who do, will salivate over
it.  Not the movie or song or preacher, but meaning of the message being
communicated.


David: I'm sure you won't find it surprising that I take great issue with
your statements [about a pastor reading Ephesians straight through].  First
of all, what's wrong with reading scripture as the pastor did? You do
realize that's what the Christians in Paul's day did right?  They met in
houses and had Paul's letter read to them.  This is exactly why I disagree
with your position Steve, for you put reading scripture straight through as
being negative, and I don't know why.  That only goes to show me that as
much as you say contrary, the scripture itself MUST be boring to you!  

Steve:  Yes, but they knew Paul personally and likely delivered his message
with passion - not necessarily all in one setting either.  I do not find the
Word boring, especially my favorite book - Eph, but this pastor failed in
delivery to bring out any meaning because he was in a hurry to get all the
way through.  He did put a few people to sleep, because he failed to
communicate the meaning God's meaning, even though the words were verbatim.

David: You're saying ... that we can actually help an unbeliever understand
the truth, even when God has declared they are His enemies and the ONLY way
they will understand is if GOD opens their hearts and again, faith comes by
HEARING and hearing by the word of God.  That's the problem I see with your
position, you think that if we use a good enough illustration, people will
understand better. 

Steve:  We are called to be the delivery medium for 'those who have ears to
hear', which God gives them.  The best delivery imaginable will fall to deaf
ears if the Holy Spirit isn't regenerating or hasn't regenerated their
heart.  But there are always those God is just turning.  Those are the ones
we are to fish for.  

Did Philip simply take the book of Isaiah from the Eunuch and read it to him
*aloud* so he could hear it preached by someone else and thus receive faith?

Acts 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot." 30
So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do
you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless
someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32
Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:   
"Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
   and like a lamb before its Shearer is silent,
       so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
   Who can describe his generation?
       For his life is taken away from the earth."
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, I ask you, does the prophet
say this, about himself or about someone else?" 35 Then Philip opened his
mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about
Jesus.  

Philip 'actually did help a yet-to-be believer to understand the truth'.
We can't educate the lost, but every elect son and daughter starts out an
'unbeliever', and they are the ones 'who have ears to hear' and whom we're
commissioned to help understand the meaning of God's words.

Grace brother,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Dea5315@... [mailto:Dea5315@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:54 PM
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] faith comes by HEARING


Steve,

I must defend myself against your false accusation against me.

You wrote: But David has argued with scripture that movies and dramas ARE
necessarily wrong in themselves. When doing so, he has misinterpreted the
texts he quotes.

David: I have not once declared the above, not once.  I have stated they are
wrong when they are used as means other than preaching, but not that they
are wrong in and of themselves - unless it's a movie that portrays an IMAGE
OF GOD. 

Going further Steve says: But there IS a balance.
Good preachers also use illustrations of various types (and I'm not talking
about pictures).

David: So you to admit that there is a difference between using an vocal
illustration and a picture.  That's the point.  An image is visible.  

Steve: (I sat in a service one time where the pastor read the entire book of
Ephesians and did nothing else) is just as much compromising the role of
communicating understanding of THE Truth as the pastor whose primary concern
is using videos and jokes to get laughs and make everyone feel entertained
so they will give and come back next week.

David: I'm sure you won't find it surprising that I take great issue with
your above statements.  First of all, what's wrong with reading scripture as
the pastor did above? You do realize that's what the Christians in Paul's
day did right?  They met in houses and had Paul's letter read to them.  This
is exactly why I disagree with your position Steve, for you put reading
scripture straight through as being negative, and I don't know why.  That
only goes to show me that as much as you say contrary, the scripture itself
MUST be boring to you!  I mean no personal offense here because I think you
do this without knowing it.  The letter to the Ephesians is GOD"S WORD
Steve.  I commend that Pastor for having enough guts to "bore" people with
it.  If you were to set before me a preacher who does nothing but reads
God's word straight, and a "preacher" who shows a 10 minute movie clip, I'll
take the boring one anyday. :)

Steve writes: Otherwise they are merely reading the verses and stopping. The
more accurate and direct an illustration is, the more value it has in
communicating to and helping the listener understand THE Truth.

David: You're saying this based on a presupposition that we can actually
help an unbeliever understand the truth, even when God has declared they are
His enemies and the ONLY way they will understand is if GOD opens their
hearts and again, faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the word of God.
That's the problem I see with your position, you think that if we use a good
enough illustration, people will understand better. 

I'm over my limit and I apologize to the list and for Moe for that.  

David 

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