Chad, you said: "*children* of the New Covenant do indeed (IMHO) have a sign
given to them that they are *in* the New Covenant: baptism."

But, isn't the Holy Spirit (heart circumcision) the sign (mark) of inclusion
in the new covenant?

When I read the scripture about baptism, it seems to me not a replacement
for circumcision, but a replacement for the sacrifices of the law, which
(attempted to) wash away the sins with sacrificial blood.

Immersion into the life, death, community, teaching, and lifestyle of Christ
for the washing away of that which has already been cut loose by God (the
sinful heart) seems what baptism is ...essentially the immersion into a
lifetime of effective sanctification.

But the washing away doesn't seem to be the sign.
The cutting of sin's bond appears to be the sign.  The circumcision of the
heart evidenced by the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit in a person's
life.

The way I read it, circumcision is the sign, cleansing is the ongoing effect
of membership.
The OT shadow was flesh circumcision which produced the effect of a lifetime
of animal blood sacrificing for cleansing.
The NT reality is heart circumcision which produces an immersion (baptism)
into a lifetime of sanctification (cleansing).

Baptism (immersion into) is not the sign, it is the effect of the real sign.

Am I completely off base here?

Thanks,
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Chad Richard Bresson [mailto:breusswane@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:15 PM
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Covenant theology and baptism


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Scanlan" <jscanlan@...>
> [Jeff comments]
> Jim, I am just wondering why they cling so tenaciously to so
> tenaciously to the infant baptism position when as you say there is no
> mandate for it. I am just wondering whether to reject that position
> would mean that they would have to reject pretty much *all* of their
> distinctive covenant theology.

 1. Most *good* Presbyterians believe that to reject infant baptism is to
reject covenant theology.  But the truth is... infant baptism NEEDS covenant
theology.  Covenant theology DOES NOT NEED infant baptism. Presbyterians DO
believe that the silence of scripture mandates infant baptism.  The fact
that no infants are baptized, explicitly OR IMPLICITLY, in the record of
scripture is NOT a deterrent to their insistence of a mandate in the text.
Their understanding of the old covenant's emphasis on the relationship
between family and covenant is fundamental to understanding
*where* they get a mandate.... having close continuity between the old
covenant and new covenant implies there must continue a close relationship
between family and covenant.

Unfortunately, if the Klineans were consistent in their understanding of the
intrusion of the Christ event and His New covenant and what that means to
shadow and fulfillment, they would understand that the New Covenant
continues the emphasis on the relationship between family and covenant in
The New Covenant Family, the Church, as a fulfillment of the Old Covenant
family.  The close continuity is in *family*.  The discontinuity is in what
the *family* looks like.  The *children* of the Old Covenant had a sign
given to them that they were *in* the Old Covenant: circumcision.  The
*children* of the New Covenant do indeed (IMHO) have a sign given to them
that they are *in* the New Covenant: baptism.  The HUGE difference is that
the *children* of the New Covenant are identified in John 1:12 and elsewhere
(also called "heirs", "joint-heirs", etc).  The close continuity between
covenants is in *children*.  The discontinuity is in what those *children*
look like.

 2. Historically, the question has been framed thusly: Are Baptists
Reformed?  3. When I'm asked whether I affirm covenant theology, the answer
always
depends on who's asking and why they're asking.    :-)


Chad Bresson
Xenia, OH

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