Or put another way: the unbaptized regenerate is foreign to scripture.

Chad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...>
To: <soundofgrace@...>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Covenant theology and baptism


> I would say regeneration is the "sign", the "washing" of Titus 3:5, and
> baptism is the sign of the sign because of its inseparable connection to
> repentance.
>
> Chad Bresson
> Xenia, OH
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Fuchs (on MSN)" <SteveF_MS@...>
> To: <soundofgrace@...>
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] Covenant theology and baptism
>
>
> > "It shows itself first and foremost, biblically, in baptism."
> >
> > But analogously, you could then say that the peace offering, or sin
> > offering, or the ceremonial washing is the sign of the shadow covenant.
> Or
> > that 'repentance' is the sign of the new, because it occurs before
> baptism.
> >
> > The sign produces effects, and those effects themselves are further
> evidence
> > of the reality, but they are not the sign proof of it.
> >
> > The changed heart is the sign proof, which produces first repentance
> (which
> > isn't the sign either) and then baptism, and many other things.
> >
> > You can't fake flesh circumcision, and you can't fake heart
circumcision,
> > though you can fake the products of both.
> >
> > I know we're not really arguing two distant positions, so I don't mean
to
> be
> > picking at nits.
> > None-the-less, I think the paedo position completely deflates once you
> > realize baptism is not the new sign, and I think the scripture supports
it
> > not being the sign, but the product of the sign.
> >
> > Grace brother.
> > Thanks for your responses.
> >
> > Steve
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chad Richard Bresson [mailto:breusswane@...]
> > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 11:06 AM
> > To: soundofgrace@...
> > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Covenant theology and baptism
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve Fuchs (on MSN)" <SteveF_MS@...>
> > To: <soundofgrace@...>
> > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:42 PM
> > Subject: RE: [soundofgrace] Covenant theology and baptism
> >
> >
> > > But I still think baptism is not the sign, and there's a certain level
> > > of distinction between the two, though not necessarily as much
> > > distance as traditionally thought in baptistic circles.
> > >
> > > In part because flesh circumcision carried with it evidence of it's
> > > happening.
> >
> > Baptism is the first "evidence of it's happening".  Support for viewing
it
> > this way is the pattern in Acts: repent and be baptized.  Separating the
> two
> > goes beyond what the apostles did.
> >
> > > Likewise, heart circumcision carries evidence of it's occurrence.
> >
> > And that evidence is first seen (repent and be baptized) in baptism.
> >
> > >When a
> > > person is truly circumcised of the heart, there's fruit that is
> > >evidence
> > of
> > > it.
> >
> > Precisely.  And baptism is the first fruit that is evidence of the
> > circumcision of the heart.
> >
> > >The heart changes, and it shows.
> >
> > It shows itself first and foremost, biblically, in baptism.
> >
> > > Baptism does not have that.  Baptism (the ceremony) is not evidence of
> > > the change.
> >
> > This is where I think your thoughts conflict with the biblical record.
> Look
> > up baptizo, cleansing, water, washing, etc. in the New Covenant and it
is
> > almost always analogous to baptism at some point.
> >
> > Chad Bresson
> > Xenia, OH
> >
> > --
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