Jack
I'm surprised that you didn't quote a single scripture in your answers.
That seems unusual for you.
I agree with you that there are a great many churches who fail at biblical
discipline, and there are also those who will baptize anyone stupid enough
to walk through their door, but you give argument that only the church can
decide, and only after careful lengthy evaluation.
My question is, how do you reconcile that with scripture?
Especially:
Acts 22:16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away
your sins, calling on His name.'
Did Paul demonstrate to Annanais any credible repentance or confession?
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and
said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift
of the Holy Spirit...41 So then, those who had received his word were
baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
How did Peter manage a 'period' of instruction and verifying 3,000 credible
confessions among an even larger number of people, in a single day, after
they had heard only a single sermon?
Acts 8:12 But when they (those in Samaria) believed Philip preaching the
good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were
being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and
after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs
and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Again, how long is the 'period' of instruction and what is the 'credible'
evidence of confession/repentance mentioned about these folks?
Especially Simon - for just a few verses later it says:
Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the
laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give
this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may
receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver
perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with
money!
21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not
right before God.
22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that,
if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of
iniquity."
He was already baptized, but remained in serious need of credible
understanding as well as sufficient repentance.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture
he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some
water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being
baptized?"
37 And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he
answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the
water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Certainly there is 'instruction' and 'validation', but isn't the 'period'
pretty short, and the evidence of credibility pretty basic belief in Christ?
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell
upon all those who heard the word. 45And those of the circumcision who
believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of
the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard
them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be
baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48And he
commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him
to stay a few days.
I suspect not many of us would consider magnifying God via speaking in
tongues (even if REAL languages) as credible evidence...but Peter did, and
once again the 'period' involved was a single sermon to these folks.
Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling
before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must
I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,
you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and
to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night
and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were
baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before
them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
One evening + Simple inquiry + One sermon --> Belief. Immediately he and
all his family were baptized.
Finally, doesn't Christ imply that baptism with disbelief results in
condemnation?
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the
gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized
shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
That should be hard for an arminian to swallow, for he would agonize about
being sure before baptizing. But those understanding sovereign grace
shouldn't. If the person is God's, baptism is part of the process of
salvation. If they are not, it facilitates their inevitable condemnation.
Just like our witness serves two purposes: A fragrance of life leading to
life for those who are being saved, and the stench of death leading to death
for those who are dieing.
Scripture never instructs us to pursue being a stench, nor to pursue
baptizing those in disbelief, but it also doesn't warn us to carefully guard
exhaustively against it happening. It simply tells us to expect that it
will happen.
What it does tell us is to tell them about Christ and instruct them to
'believe in Christ', and if they express belief, we baptize (immediately),
letting God eventually expose their refusal to repent for condemnation by
discipline, and their sinful lifestyle for condemnation by expulsion (1 Cor
5:11)
Regarding the question of baptismal classes...
I would guess that most are done in a way that isn't modeled in scripture.
Instruction of who Christ is and the need to believe in him we find
modeled...but the examples are always a single sermon or single-day
witnessing. Most classes take numerous weeks with intent way beyond
explaining Christ and introducing belief.
But lengthy teaching/classes are scriptural. I just think we tend to do
them in reverse order.
What comes first in the great commission? Lengthy detailed instruction, or
baptism?
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching
them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you
always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
Just to be clear, I'm totally against easy-believism as well as lack of
biblical discipline. But, regarding baptism itself, I don't find evidence
in the text to support holding back or even suggesting a delay to someone
expressing belief in Jesus as the Saving Son of God. I think the failure in
most churches is not that they baptize too expediently, but their lack of
proper discipling after belief & baptism. That discipling involves a much
longer period than any pre-baptismal class I've heard of.
Grace brothers,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: JACKJEFF@... [mailto:JACKJEFF@...]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 2:20 PM
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: [soundofgrace] Re: Baptism - Jack to Jeff
Jeff:
<< When do you perform a believer's baptism? Do you do it immediately
someone says they want it, no matter what age they might be? Does age
matter? Are baptismal classes Scriptural? >>
Believers in believer's (believers' ?) baptism [ :-) ] may be divided into
two "camps":
1) those who believe in baptizing converts, and
2) those who strive to baptize only the regenerate.
This distinction hinges on the following issues:
1) that there is a difference between conversion and regeneration, and
2) that conversion may be faked, while regeneration is the work of the
Spirit of God.
In other words, the regenerate will always be soundly converted, while all
those professing or appearing to be converted may not be genuinely
regenerated.
The doctrinal issue concerning candidates for baptism is directly related to
whether you believe in a converted church membership, or a regenerate church
membership.
The stance on this issue will determine what view you have of church
membership on the "in" side of the coin:
1) Easy in - easy out -
Churches who are not careful about who they accept into the membership end
up, as a consequence, facing many more cases of church discipline than the
others if they do practice consistent Biblical discipline. This is
especially true
in the last 1-2 centuries due to the effects of Finneyistic evangelistic
methods and teaching.
2) Easy in - hard out -
Such churches are not "fussy" about who they accept into the membership, do
not practice consistent Biblical discipline, and even the deceased find it
hard
to get removed from their membership rolls! Unfortunately, this
classification may fit the majority of the churches within American
evangelicalism. This
is a quick recipe for filling churches with the unregenerate.
3) Hard in - easy out -
Some churches examine prospective members rigorously, and are quick to
discipline the unrepentant out of the membership. These churches appear to
be more
concerned about maintaining the purity of the local body.
4) Hard in - hard out -
In these churches, while they rigorously examine prospective members, they
do
not practice consistent Biblical discipline.
To answer your questions more specifically:
1. << When do you perform a believer's baptism? Do you do it immediately
someone says they want it...? >>
The candidate is not the determiner of whether they will be baptized or not.
The ordinances have been committed to the Church. The Church answers to her
Head concerning how she administers those ordinances. For example, if
someone
believes that being baptized will save them or gain them "points" or merit
with God the Church should not baptize them. The decision must rest with
the
Church as she faithfully administers the ordinances Christ has committed to
her
to His glory.
2. << no matter what age they might be? Does age matter?
Age is not the issue, nor should it be. The genuineness of someone's faith
is. Jonathan Edwards recorded a sound conversion of a four year old during
the Great Awakening.
3. << Are baptismal classes Scriptural? >>
If a local church believes that the best way they can discharge their
responsibility under their Head is to have candidates for baptism go through
a period
of instruction to determine the genuineness of their faith, or to aid them
in
understanding what the ordinance means, they should have the liberty to do
so. In any case, a period of examination is the only way that the
difference
between false conversions and genuine regeneration may be determined.
"Instant
baptism" is a recipe for future problems within the Church, and for possible
confusion for the baptized.
Soli Deo Gloria,
John T. "Jack" Jeffery
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