Thanks for the input Steve, let's run it up the flag post and see if anyone salutes!
Harry
 
Regarding Hebrews 5:8, I agree with you Harry -- but let's look at the context of the chapter that your friend Chad believes not to support your understanding of the verse:
 
Hebrews 5:1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 
4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, 
   "You are my Son; 
       today I have become your Father.[1] "[2] 6And he says in another place, 
   "You are a priest forever, 
       in the order of Melchizedek."[3] 
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
 
The context is Christ's priesthood.  This section of chapter 5 actually connects up with chapter 7 and the Melchizedekian priesthood.  There is an tangent that the author takes from 5:11 through chapter 6 dealing directly with the sin the the Hebrews were currently stuck in and warning them of the danger of not persevering.  So the question is whether these verse teach active obedience -- I think that they might only notice the passive voice.  Christ was "made" perfect by another.  It was through "suffering" not obedience to the law.  This probably connects much better with his qualifications as high priest and representative of others who suffer.  4:14-16 would then be the introduction to 5:1-10.  But even if they did teach about Christ's law-keeping, the question is, do they teach *the imputation* of that active obedience?  Nothing in the context seems to demand that.  The book of Hebrews does teach about Christ's sinlessness 4:15.  Perfection in the book of Hebrews is clearly a
 theme 7:18-19, 28, 10:14.  These verses certainly could be in agreement with the teaching of the imputation of Christ's law-keeping.  But they do not *teach* the doctrine.  So 5:8-9 could be an affirmation of the doctrine if it was actually taught somewhere else in Scripture.  The verses themselves do not even answer the question relation between His perfection and Him being the source of eternal salvation.  I think that is neatly wrapped up in chapter 10 where it is all summed up in His one sacrifice in which he makes his people perfect forever.  But the bottom line is that Hebrews 5:8-9 is not a passage that is about the imputation of the active obedience of Christ so it cannot be used to as a foundational passage in support of that doctrine. 


"Chad R. Bresson" <breusswane@...> wrote:Displayed? The context doesn't justify that kind of translation. that's a linguistic gimmick to ignore the obvious: Christ had to learn obedience (righteousness) and in learning obedience be "made perfect" (vs. 9).

Earn is another question for another passage. I didn't bring "earn" into this verse. Right now our disagreement is over the nature of Christ's humanity (the length of this conversation and the disagreement over the volume of passages suggests incompatible hermeneutics... which is why I initially balked at exegeting anything... we won't agree on any passage because one of us allows for implied revelation and one of us does not). Christ the man was born with the need to learn to obey... with a need to develop righteousness in being made perfect. The Righteous One learned righteousness. The perfect One developed perfection.

To suggest otherwise is gnosticism in new clothing.

Chad

H Dorrington wrote:
Is that the question, how can some one who is all knowing learn something? Heb 5:8 is translated that He learned obedience may also be translated that He displayed or demonstrated obedience. To show by use and practice.

I thought the question was did He (need to) earn additional righteousness by His law keeping?

Harry



"Chad R. Bresson" 
wrote:
Then maybe you could explain what "learning obedience" means for someone who is inherently obedient.

Chad Bresson
Xenia, OH

H Dorrington wrote:

I have never denied the plain truth of Scripture that Christ Jesus was born under the law what I don't see is the implied inference that the perfectly righteous Son of God was not sufficient in righteousness so that He needed to come to earth to earn additional righteousness by learning obedience so He might impute some to my account.

Harry


Chad Richard Bresson 
wrote:
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "H Dorrington" 
> Not all humanity is under the law...

Christ was "tempted". Therefore he was under the law.

Chad Bresson
Xenia, OH

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