CHAD: Romans 5:20 doesn't treat sin as a condition for grace. It's merely making a statement of fact that because man has sinned (something not true in the pre-fall garden) man needs grace. MARK: It most certainly does treat sin as a condition. In fact it states that when sin increases, grace follows suit and increases. If that's not conditional I don't know what is. You don't find grace just increasing on its own. CHAD: But... even if you're right about sin being a condition for grace, you've just proven my point: Since Adam had yet to sin, he hadn't met the condition necessary for grace... so there's no grace in the pre-fall, non-sin gardenic formula. MARK: As I've stated in an earlier post, conditions for grace don't always have to be sinful ones, which obviously Adam didn't need to possess. But you still haven't answered Psalms 145:9 which states that God is merciful over ALL his works -- meaning the works in a perfect creation as well, or is mercy only for the condemned and sinful? Or are you going to waterdown mercy here as you did grace to mean generosity? CHAD: > Adam "did his job." Yep. And according to Romans 6:23, he "earned" his wages. MARK: The above was put in quotes in keeping with your flawed analogy. Adam had no "job," and needed to earn no "wage." It's a little bit funny that you can find Adam in Romans 6:23 concerning wages but can't find Adam in Romans 6:23 when it comes to "free gift of eternal life." CHAD: So... how is death a "wage" and life wouldn't have been? What you say about one, *must* be true for the other. MARK: Must? It's only a "must" for you, as the very text you cite differs. Here is Paul's chance to parallel "wages" of sin with the "earned" life of Jesus Christ, and he doesn't call it that. CHAD: And how is it gracious to have a death threat hanging on your every act of obedience? MARK: I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but if you're talking about Adam in the garden it's no different than me or you having the threat of eternal damnation hanging over us if we don't pursue after a holiness without which NO ONE will see the Lord. It's still all of grace. It's been that way since the garden. I'm not dispensational in the way God dispenses grace -- pre-garden versus post-garden. ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!