Mike: John, but wasn't Adam's relationship conditional in a way that ours under grace is not? The text does imply that continued life is conditional upon not eating, even if it only says that eating will bring death. Otherwise you are left with eat-die, don't eat-die, or "die later", as Chad said. Right? or am I missing something? On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:44:27 -0400 "John Reisinger" <24jreisinger26@...> writes: > From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...> > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Re: Adam and the garden > > > JGR wrote: THERE IS NEITHER GRACE OR EARNING BY WORKS IN THE GARDEN > - SHOW > ME OTHERWISE IN THE TEXT. > > Chad responds: If Adam obeys, he lives. If Adam disobeys, he > dies. There > is "earning" on > both sides of the equation. > > JGR: Here is the fundmental problem with your position. We agree > that the > text says "If Adam disobeys he dies." His disobedience "earns him > the > penalty of death." He "earns" and experiences something, death, as a > direct > result and reward for his action of eating the forbidden fruit. IF > HE HAD > NEVER EATEN OF THE FRUIT HE WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPERIENED DEATH. The > wages of > sin is death. So far so good. We agree that is what "If Adam > disobeys he > dies" means. > > However, you then want to insist on a one and one equation. You want > "If > Adam does not eat" to mean "if Adam obeys some unstated promise, he > will > earn something he did not have before." You make the fact that Adam > lives as > long as he does not eat to mean Adam either (1) earns a life he did > not yet > have, or (2) else he was under a works relationship where his very > existence > must be earned every day. Neither of these are found in the text. No > where > does the text say or imply that Adam will "earn" and experience for > the > first time, something, "life," as a direct result and reward for > his > non-action. His non-action, not eating, can "earn" nothing unless > there is a > specific covenant promise attached to that non-action. There is > clearly a > promise, or threat, attached to eating but not a word about earning > something new and different by not eating. CONTINUING IN THE SAME > STATE IS > NOT THE SAME AS EARNING A DIFFERENT STATE AS A REWARD. > > Chad continues: Whatever you say about the one, you must say about > the > other. > > The inference is in the text. The exegesis demands we > > treat both sides of the formula the same (and given the way the > > obey/disobey, life/death formula is handled in the rest of the > canon that > > kind of exegesis and inference is not only good but necessary... > but like > I > > said... the rest of the canon and its biblical theology is merely > the > trump > > card... we need go no further than exegesis of Genesis 2:17 > itself). > > JGR: The formula in the rest of the Canon of "obey/disobey, > life/death" > exclusively deals with how guilty sinners can be justified. Adam was > not a > guilty sinner that needed to be justified. You constantly mix apples > and > oranges. "In the day you eat thereof you shall surely die" cannot, > by good > and necessary consequences" be made to mean, "you will be justified > from > your sin if you do not eat." The "obey/disobey, life/death" formula > in the > rest of Scripture means exactly that. > > JGR continues: There is a clear commandment from a sovereign > Creator to a > sinless man not to eat of a specific tree upon pain of death. The > commandment mentions no rewards based on "earning" by works, or > non-works. > > Chad reponds: If eat eats of the tree he "earns" death (Romans > 6:23). The > necessary > > inference is if he doesn't eat, he "earns" life. > > JGR responds: If "earns life" means life in any sense whatever > something > that Adam did not already have then your necessary inference is not > there. > It is one thing for Adam to lose, by disobeying, a life he already > had and > Adam earning by his works a life he did not already possess. Does > Romas > 6:23 also mean that if Adam does not eat the fruit that he will earn > and > receive as a reward "the gift of God, eternal life?" Is that the > "life" that > Adam could have earned? Does the "formula" in Genesis 2:17 mean Adam > was > promised "eternal life," salvation, as a reward for not eating the > fruit? > > Chad continues: If the disobedience is an > > evil "work" (Romans 3 is clear that it is), the obedience is > automatically > a > > righteous "work". What you say about disobedience and death, you > must say > > about obedience and life. > > JGR responds: More apples and oranges. Romas 6:23 does not say or > imply, > "The wages of sin (eating the fruit) is death, but the gift of God ( > as a > reward for not eating the fruit) is eternal life." You are saying > God > preached the Gospel to Adam before Adam sinned. > > Chad continues: You're suggesting that his disobedience was not a > "work" and > did not "earn" death? > > JGR responds: Where have I ever suggested that. Adam's act of > disobedience > was anything other than a conscious and deliberate "work of > disobedience" to > a clear and specific commandment. We agree on that. What you need > and do not > have is a clear and specific coveant promise from God to Adam > whereby Adam > can earn by works a life he was not given at creation. Genesis 2:17 > certainly does not yield such a covenant promise. > > Chad continues: If you say "no", at least you're being consistent > with what > you > > believe to be true about obedience and life. But what the > scriptures tell > > us about disobedience and death (and obedience and life... Lev. > 18:5) is > not > > in your favor. > > JGR responds: (1) I am not sure what you think I believe about > "obedience > and life." (2) Lev 18:5 is addressed to a man needing to be > justified in > the sight of a holy God. The text cannot apply to Adam anymore than > Genesis > 2:17 can apply to any person but Adam. You keep ignoring the radical > effects > of the fall and the great difference between pre and post fall > revelation. > > JGR > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace