Chad, Do you try to intimidate people out of their views with the use of guilt by association? I.e. Finneyism. Terry, If there is no good in the flesh, and the flesh dwells in us, and will never change, whats the big deal about believing that I am a new creation with a sin nature still in me? The works of the flesh are immorality, impurity, strife, divisions, to name a few. What could be worse? Could a so called sin nature be worse? Jesus said these things proceed out of the heart (nature?) and defile a man. In my true self, I am a new creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5), one with Christ in resurrection (Rom. 6, 1 Cor. 6), created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10), made alive together with Christ; raised up with Him and seated with Him (Eph. 2). Therefore this is who I am in Christ, and my identity should be based on this reality. I am actually ontologically united to Christ. Nevertheless, something very stinky still lives in me and often when it sees sin it wants it and goes after it if I am not careful and walk after the flesh. Yes it has been defeated at the cross, thank God for that. However, exegetically speaking, how could you demand that the crucified old man is dead and gone, while the crucified flesh is merely inoperative. This is certainly a stretch. If you were to still maintain that, that would be your choice, but you should acknowlege that it is a debatable point and not worthy of such drastic pronouncements. It is certainly not "(balderdash)" to differ from your view here. Furthermore, in your scenario you do not have a completely new creation in Christ, but rather an improved old man, or an old man made a new man. You have the old source of sin fused to the new Creation in Christ. I believe WE were crucified and risen with Christ, but the sin in us which I have no problem terming a "sin nature" was crucified and not risen with Christ. Rather death has separated it from Christ and us from it in Christ. That is why we are to consider ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. We are dead to sin as in SEPARATED from it in Christ. The fact that we must consider, "count", "reckon" this to be so indicates that it is not autimatically experienced as it would be if there were not a source of sin still in us. Therefore "it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". Yet, I am still responsible because, "If YOU by the Spirit are putting to death the deeds of the body you will live". I do not claim that this is easy to understand, however I think it lines up better with the Biblical data. Terry, when you answer that your flesh becomes more active "in a way" when you feed it? What do you mean? Chad, your view sounds alot like one-nature pentecostal holiness teaching to me (:-), where the second blessing delivers from indwelling sin. At least you share doctrinally the concept that there is no indwelling source of sin. Your sin does come from somewhere though, doesn't it? Under your construct it could only come from the new man in Christ. It is not an illusion is it Mary Baker Eddy? :- The devil made me do that, no it was my flesh, I mean my old man.... Grace to you all in Christ. Mike, Pa On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:00:57 -0700 (PDT) "Chad R. Bresson" <breusswane@...> writes: > --- "Brown, Stanley" <SPBrown@...> wrote: > > The reason we still sin is because we still have a sin nature, > without which > > we will not be able to sin as will be the case in the > resurrection. > > We already have the resurrection as our nature in union with > Christ's resurrection, > the firstfruits of our regeneration. Regeneration *means* what was > once dead (sin > nature) is now alive (new nature). > > Nowhere does the scripture state that the regenerated New Creation > has a sin nature. > That doctrine is a manufactured fiction of Finneyism... the > outgrowth of second > blessing/Keswickian's "I surrender All" interpretation of Romans 7. > > Chad Bresson > Xenia, OH > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > >