Stan said: Why did Paul at the end of his life refer to himself as the chief sinner? Terry says: A fella named Joe Girard is listed in the Guiness Book of Records as "The World's Number 1 Salesman", because he used to sell more cars per year than anyone else. He retains that title, even though he hasn't sold a car in many years. Paul claimed the title "chief of sinners" because of the horror of his anti-Christ, anti-Church life before his conversion. He claimed it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so those of us who may be tempted to steal his title :) can save our breath. In any case, he wasn't claiming that he was STILL sinning above all others. =================================== Stan said: Is it necessary to dichotomize the person? Terry says: No, it is necessary that we TRI-chotomize the person --- body, soul, and spirit. It's the spirit that is reborn, old things have passed away, all things have become new. The soul (mind, emotion, will) is NOT reborn. We must continue to renew our MINDS with the Word and Spirit (Rom. 12), and continue to channel our EMOTIONS through the filter of Christ and His Word, and direct our WILLS in line with our spirit and His Spirit, which are "one". The body, which includes the brain (not the mind) while not intrinsically evil, is the residence of all kinds of old habit patterns, chemical pathways of bad and good habits, which can be re-habituated through the Word and the Spirit. There is SO much Scripture that a dichotomist simply cannot understand, that I think biblical anthropolgy is one of the most important (and neglected) studies there is, yet not nearly as important as the study of Christ Himself. ================================ Stan said: Aren't we one person with two inherent natures (sinner/saint) after regeneration? Terry says: No, and you will never find any Scripture that says so. We are saints, who incidentally sin. Of course we are "sinners" in the English language sense of the word, since we do sin. But we are not "sinners" biblically in our nature, in our identity, i.e., in our essence, which is "spirit". ================================ Stan says: The flesh is a metaphor for the still indwelling sin nature that we are born with and that is not eradicated with regeneration. Terry says: No, you made that up (or rather your teachers did, and the NIV reinforced it). Paul could not have been much clearer when he said in Rom. 7, "it is no longer I who sin, but sin which is in me". He was admitting, of course that he sinned as a total being, but that it was not his nature to do so, but a foreign influence that resided in his "members". By the way, neither the "flesh" nor the "old nature" was eradicated --- the flesh remains, and the old nature was reborn, made new. Don't DEFEND, Stan, THINK. Then if you can find your premise in the Scriptures, show me. =============================== Stan says: We are sinners at the "core of our being" and in superficial parts as well. To deny this is to deny biblical anthropology and reformational teaching. Terry says: While I am staunchly Reformed in soteriology (initial salvation), Reformed thinkers have fallen woefully short in their understanding of the radical nature of Grace and the New Covenant AFTER initial salvation. They have also been traditionally DI-chotomists, and two-naturists -- both biblically indefensible positions. So, while I wouldn't want to deny biblical anthropology, denying "reformational teaching" scares me not in the least. As to being sinners at the core of our being, you are again bowing to your teachers, who have bowed to their teachers, etc., instead of the Scriptures, which say that he who is in Christ is a new creation...old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new. We are a new creation, not a chocolate/vanilla swirl cone, old/new nature. Thanks, Stan, Terry Rayburn Clarksville, Tennessee ================================== "Brown, Stanley" <SPBrown@...> wrote: Why did Paul at the end of his life refer to himself as the chief sinner? Is it necessary to dichotomize the person? Aren't we one person with two inherent natures (sinner/saint) after regeneration? The flesh is a metaphor for the still indwelling sin nature that we are born with and that is not eradicated with regeneration. The new birth bends our will towards God. In this way are we now alive and incline towards Him, but we still, of necessity, have an evil nature called the flesh. I say necessity because how can God train us for heaven without tough battles, which primarily take place within us. We are sinners at the "core of our being" and in superficial parts as well. To deny this is to deny biblical anthropology and reformational teaching. Stan > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Rayburn [SMTP:terryrayburn@...] > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 9:30 AM > To: soundofgrace@... > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Romans 7 - Terry to Moe > > Mike said: why make such a big deal about > calling "sin" or "the flesh", the "old nature" > > Terry says: The biggest reason, Mike, is that it > is not biblical. "Old Nature" implies that is > is YOU and ME, when Paul goes out of > his way to point out that it is sin IN him, > not him. He further says that there is no > good in us, that is, in our flesh. He doesn't > say there is no good in our SPIRIT, which > is our nature, made new and one with the > Holy Spirit. > > That's the theology [specifically anthropology], > Mike, but what's the practical application? > > Simply this: if I think I am a "sinner" at the > core of my being, in my "nature", then I will > think it "natural" for me to walk in sin. Then > I won't be inclined to walk in the truth that I am > "dead to sin" and "alive to God". I'll be > inclined to walk according to my feelings that > tell me I am a "sinner" with a "sinful nature", > reinforced by my NIV. > > I see this all the time, and it results in one > focusing on sin, and "trying to be better" to > "please God"...instead of focusing on Jesus > and standing on His radical Grace --- > a crucial key to walking in the Spirit. > ======================================= > > Mike said: "the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the > Spirit against the flesh" - that sounds pretty bad dog/ > good dog like to me. Doesn't your "flesh" become > more active/ alive, if you feed it? > > Terry says: In a way, yes. That's why we are > admonished to "make no provision for the flesh". > But the important point is that the flesh (sarx) > never changes. Neither does the sin > that resides there. That's why a believer > can make a habit of walking after the Spirit, or > walking after the flesh. And as awful as it is, a > "mature" believer, who has been a "godly" person > for many years is just as capable as a "rookie" > of "falling into" horrible sin, at least for a time, > because he walks after the flesh, and the ol' flesh > is just as much a sin hotel as it ever was. Ask > any old believer if this is true. If they say, > "No", it's because they have fallen into the > sin of lying :) > ==================================== > Mike said: If you are going to argue that the old > man/nature has been crucified and can no longer > exist, so has the flesh. "Those that belong to Christ > Jesus have crucified the flesh".... And yet the flesh > "lusts". > > Terry says: In the crucifixion of the "old man", there > was a "regeneration" that took place, a "new birth". > The old nature (our old spirit, if you will), was > replaced by a new nature, a new spirit, made one > with His Spirit. The flesh, however, though > "crucified", was not replaced, nor "destroyed" (KJV), > but "rendered inoperative" (NKJV margin) -- > "to render idle, unemployed, inactive, > inoperative, to cause a person or thingto have > no further efficiency, to deprive of force, > influence or power" (Strong's) > > So I think it's a mistake to equate the crucifixion > of the flesh (which, by the way, is an already > accomplished thing) with the crucifixion of the > "old man" , and the resulting "reborn spirit", > which is "dead to sin and alive to God". > > One last "by the way": Contrary to another > common misconception, the unregenerate man > is not spiritually dead in the sense that his > spirit is not alive and kicking. It's just that > his spirit is "dead to God and alive to sin", > the negative corrolary to the born again one. > ==================================== > Mike, I too appreciate the discussion and the > iron sharpening. Thanks! > > Terry Rayburn > Clarksville, Tennessee > > > > malajaa@... wrote: > Terry, > I agree with 90% of what you wrote with a hearty amen! > However, why make such a big deal about calling "sin" or "the flesh", the > "old nature" > "the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh" - > that sounds pretty bad dog/ good dog like to me. Doesn't your "flesh" > become more active/ alive, if you feed it? > > When Paul says it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me, > he seems to be differentiating between two sources of behavior. The sin > that dwells in him/ us is the source of our sins. Whether we call it the > "old man", "sin", "flesh" or whatever. > > If you are going to argue that the old man/nature has been crucified and > can no longer exist, so has the flesh. "Those that belong to Christ > Jesus have crucified the flesh".... And yet the flesh "lusts". > > Blessings to you all in Christ. > I believe that these are the issues that greatly help or hinder our walk > with the Lord, so thank you all for discussing them. > > Yours in Christ, > Mike, > Pa > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Terry Rayburn > writes: > > Brother Moe, > > > > The problem with that theory is that it infers that as > > New Covenant believers we no longer have the situation > > that Paul speaks of (doing what we are against and > > not doing what we are for). What believer in his right > > mind can say that? > > > > 1. The core of the issue is the importance of good biblical > > anthropology, which includes the concepts of > > "one-naturism" and "trichotomy". > > > > 2. The reason Paul, and we, love the Law is because we have > > been given a new nature (spirit), REPLACING the old nature, > > and that new nature loves Christ, hates sin, and is "one with" > > the Spirit of God. > > > > 3. The reason we sometimes (even often, sometimes) do > > the opposite of our new nature is because of "sin" which > > is IN us, but IS NOT US. When we are deceived by the > > world, flesh and devil, CONTRARY to the truths of > > Romans 6, we "walk according to the flesh" instead of > > "walk according to the spirit/Spirit, and we sin. > > > > 4. The NIV does a terrible disservice to correct biblical > > anthropology by translating "flesh" as "sinful nature". The > > untold misery caused by that alone is heartbreaking, > > bringing millions of believers back to the old "black dog -- > > white dog" theory of two natures. (If you feed the one, so > > the theory goes, he grows strong...if you feed the other, > > he grows strong...pure UNBIBLICAL balderdash!) > > > > 5 Man does not have two natures...never did. Unregenerate > > man has a nature that loves sin and hates God --- no matter > > how he appears! Regenerate man has a nature that loves > > God and hates sin --- no matter how he appears! > > > > 6 Lastly, Romans 6 has the keys, which forgetting (through > > the deception of the world, flesh and devil) causes the > > Romans 7 "problem". Some of the keys are: > > > > a. our "old man" was crucified with Christ and made new > > (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17, where he who is in Christ is a new > > creation, old thing have passed away, new things have > > come) > > b. we have died to sin and are alive to God, and must > > "reckon" (choose to believe) this is so, > > c. sin shall not have dominion over us...why?...because > > we are no longer under law, but under grace. (Even > > NC'ers wimp out on this revolutionary truth, by saying > > things like, "We aren't under Old Covenant law, but we > > are under New Covenant law. Obviously "under" has to > > be defined, but one thing is for sure: There is now NO > > condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, and > > we are not "under" ANY law...Grace is absolute, not > > just for INITIAL salvation, as any good Reformed guy > > will emphasize, but for LIVING, as far too few will > > emphasize). Of course this prompts the question, > > "Then can't we live just any ol' sinful way we want, > > since we're covered by grace?" Paul anticipated > > the question, and answered it by saying [loosely], > > "What a stupid question! How can you who have > > DIED to sin, think sinning is OK?" > > > > So the point is to STAND on those truths, draw near > > to God (and He will draw near to you), concentrate on > > our RELATIONSHIP with Jesus, and "walk according > > to the Spirit". If we are deceived again, and fail (and > > we will), we need to get back up, in the JOY of > > grace and forgiveness, and repeat the process. The > > law has NO claim on us, but to express the mind > > and will of Him Whom we LOVE! > > > > Then a mighty thing happens: "If we walk according > > to the Spirit, we WILL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh." > > > > The Law, when applied as "The Rules", does two > > things: (1) Inflames sin, and (2) quenches the Holy > > Spirit. > > > > True antinomianism says, "Eat, drink, and sin...who > > cares?...grace covers all." This is heresy. > > > > But we need to have courage and risk the > > ACCUSATION of antinomianism (like Paul), in > > saying, "Grace DOES cover all...and so we > > love our Savior...and so we DO care." > > > > Don't hold back the Gospel of Grace, because > > "The sheep will go wild". We won't go wild. We love > > Him. We hate sin. We just need to learn of Him. > > Feed the sheep...with Him, and His Grace. > > > > Carpe Gratiam, > > > > Terry Rayburn > > Clarksville, Tennessee > > > > > > > > > > > > moe.bergeron@... wrote: > > This is what I suspect is going on. The guy in Romans 7 is a pre-New > > Covenant Pentecost era brother. He's regenerate and loves the law > > but he is powerless to walk in it as he would desire, at least not > > until the event that defines Romans 8 comes along. > > > > With Romans 8 there's a newness brought to that same man through the > > Spirit Indwelling Inscription accompanied by all of the dynamics > > resulting from such a new relationship. He experiences a shift that > > is brought to pass through the ushering in of the New Covenant era > > by the indwelling Spirit of Christ or better yet, the Triune God. > > It's the very relationship the prophets and Jesus had predicted > > (John's Gospel - The Book of Glory). > > > > So then,,,, Chapters 7 and 8 are not about who was that man. It's > > all about an event that has radically changed the dynamics of holy > > living for that man. It's the IN CHRIST relationship we as New > > Covenant believers are to walk in. > > > > There is therefore NOW no condemnation to those who are IN Christ > > Jesus, who do NOT walk according to the flesh, but according to the > > Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life has made me free from the > > law of sin and death. (Rom 8:1-2) > > > > C'mon guys this is New Covenant stuff and it transforms! > > > > Moe > > > > -- > > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit "Grace For Life" > > An Oasis of Rest For the People of God > > http://www.graceforlife.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > -- > > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > > Visit "Grace For Life" > An Oasis of Rest For the People of God > http://www.graceforlife.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace Visit "Grace For Life" An Oasis of Rest For the People of God http://www.graceforlife.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace