That's the tension in it. Without a changed heart, the debt will continue recurring because the heart is enslaved to it, and even if a debt hasn't yet been incurred, the heart is still unfit for the presence of God. It's still a slave to sin. You can pardon a man, but if you don't change him, he'll be back. Using the earthly shadows; a criminal may pay his debt to society for a single instance, but after doing so he does not become innocent. His heart must change for 'innocent' to be a possible description of him. Salvation is much more than paying our already incurred debt. It is also changing us to become less and less enslaved to incurring it, and more and more enslaved to Christ's righteousness. Are we not saved from our nature even more than we are saved from specific instances of debt? If it's otherwise, then aren't some of us in much greater need of salvation than others because we have incurred many more instances of debt, even though we all started out with the same one in Adam? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Roundrocke@...<mailto:Roundrocke@...> To: soundofgrace@...<mailto:soundofgrace@...> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] infant depravity In a message dated 12/4/2004 10:41:39 PM Central Standard Time, pastor@...<mailto:pastor@...> writes: Redemption assumes a debt, not a debt nature. There can be no redemption unless there is a real debt. One cannot redeem someone from a debt nature. If a person is redeemed it must be true that, legally speaking, he has incurred a debt. Having a nature or tendency to incur debt does not activate the need for redemption. If I were of a nature to spend without restraint and beyond my means, no-one could demand a penny of payment from me unless I actually went out and overspent. If my nature in my mother's womb were that of a shop-aholic, no one could redeem me for, despite my debt-producing nature, I would still have no debt. So redemption cannot be applied to me. I think you can see how this would be applied to the question of the sinfulness of infants: if they are in need of redemption, then they have a debt which must be paid, actual sin that is on their account in some way or another. Since infants have not done anything, either good or bad, it must be their debt (sin) arises from another source. They inherit it: not just a nature or tendency to produce debt (sin), but actual debt (debt) is imputed to them, and they are not debtless (sinless). It is for this reason that they must be redeemed if they are to be saved. BUT: children can be held liable for debts of the parents - LEGALLY. We are held as sinners before God because we all sinned in Adam. Ever know a baby who had to be taught to lie? steal? cheat on games, etc? My 2 1/2 yr old grandson will emphatically deny a dirty diaper - when the "evidence" is strong! He just does not like to be changed. Who does enjoy the "change" process in our lives? We love the result, not the process. We deny our guilt and need for change - by nature. God has to change our nature before we desire the process of change in our life. Personally, I cannot recall a time when I did not believe in Christ - and always believed in God's sovereignty, even before I heard of the doctrine. At 3, I announced to my grandparents that "the guardian angel was with us, so everything was ok". They were amazed, and talked to my Mom - also amazed, because nobody had told me about such a thing. Not claiming to have been reborn at that time (smile....BEFORE the widely accepted "age of accountability")...too young to understand these things, but my God already was working in this kid. By His grace, He has kept me on "short apron-strings" all my life, protecting me from so much of this world. Sinless.....of course not! But without His redemption, I would be headed for hell just as surely as the "worst" sinner out there. Hope I don't confuse the issues. Charlene -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com<http://www.soundofgrace.com/> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...<mailto:soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...> To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace<http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace> -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace