Dear Steve,

You are right to point out that "sin debt" is but one aspect of our problem; 
and redemption (the solution to a debt problem) is but one aspect of the 
whole of salvation.  One of the reasons for so much confusion regarding 
salvation is that we are prone to out a part for the whole: redemption for 
salvation.  Redemption is not the whole of salvation any more than 
regeneration or reconciliation is the whole.  You are correct when you 
say,"Salvation is much more than paying our already incurred debt."  How 
often have I heard (or read) that when Christ said, "It is finished," 
salvation was fully done.  That simply cannot be, else how could our 
"salvation be nearer than when we first believed."  Salvation encompasses 
all that God does in bringing many sons to glory.  That is, salvation is 
that entire work of God whereby he takes his people, lost and dead in sin, 
and makes them like His Son and with His Son to behold His glory forever. 
Many aspects of the Divine work of Salvation are finished, but some await 
fulfillment until the end of this age, and some of them (such as 
justification) have recurring manifestations.

As to criminal debt:  We may refer to criminal acts as incurring a debt, but 
that is really not a good use of the word, "debt," even though it is a very 
common metaphor.  Debt is, strictly speaking, a financial matter, and can be 
resolved by payment of the debt, wither by one's self or by another.  In 
either case, the payment is redemption from the bondage that came as a 
result of the debt.  In this sense, the redeemed person is truly free.

As to varying degrees of the need of salvation:  All transgression flow from 
one continual transgression of the human heart: hatred of God.  There are 
many ways to express that hatred, one of them being hatred of other people 
which, itself can be expressed in various ways.  But the chief expression of 
hatred toward God - the manner in which all men express their hatred of 
God - is "an evil heart of unbelief."  Unless and until God does a work of 
grace, everyone continues in his unbelief, and, therefore, everyone is 
equally guilty of this great sin and in need of redemption from it.

My point in response to Wm. Oosterman, was that the children in the womb of 
Rebecca were not innocent of sin even though they had not personally 
committed any sin: they were guilty of sin in Adam and not "debt free" or 
innocent, and therefore needed redeeming.  If unborn children have no sin 
debt, then they are not in need of redemption.  If their only sin lies in 
their nature, then redemption is not necessary for their salvation  Though 
not conscious of their hatred of God, children (born and unborn) are still 
God-haters.  In fact, many religious people are not conscious of their 
hatred of God until they hear the gospel!  Just like Paul, they thought they 
were loving God, but when the gospel appeared to them, they rebelled against 
it and proved that they hated God.  Some, like Paul, are made aware of that 
hatred and given grace to repent.  Some not.

Both redemption and a changed nature are necessary components of our 
salvation, neither one more than the other; both are absolutely necessary.

Once again, I am a bit rambling, but I hope a few points come through and 
are helpful.

Joe T



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Fuchs" <SteveF_MS@...>
To: <soundofgrace@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] infant depravity


That's the tension in it.  Without a changed heart, the debt will continue 
recurring because the heart is enslaved to it, and even if a debt hasn't yet 
been incurred, the heart is still unfit for the presence of God.  It's still 
a slave to sin.  You can pardon a man, but if you don't change him, he'll be 
back.

Using the earthly shadows; a criminal may pay his debt to society for a 
single instance, but after doing so he does not become innocent.  His heart 
must change for 'innocent' to be a possible description of him.

Salvation is much more than paying our already incurred debt.
It is also changing us to become less and less enslaved to incurring it, and 
more and more enslaved to Christ's righteousness.

Are we not saved from our nature even more than we are saved from specific 
instances of debt?
If it's otherwise, then aren't some of us in much greater need of salvation 
than others because we have incurred many more instances of debt, even 
though we all started out with the same one in Adam?

Steve