Dear John, I agree with most of your post and also do not believe the sign gifts are in use today. I also share your hesitancy, based on the lack of Scripture, for dogmatically asserting their complete cessation. However, when you write that you have no reason to doubt the experience of the Calvinists who have "spoken in tongues", I would question you at that point. Don't you think the sinfulness of the human heart- "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked"- calls for always questioning others experiences? Especially in the light of so much obvious foolishness in charismatic circles? The prayers of the list for Jack were very touching and heartfelt. I would like to add a hearty amen to all of them. May God bless you and keep you Jack. I have enjoyed your posts and think of you as a man mighty in the Scriptures. May you and we glorify Him no matter what! Grace to you and Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Mike M. PA. On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:19:39 -0500 "John Reisinger" <24jreisinger26@...> writes: > The Sound of Grace chat list is pretty informal and takes in a much > wider > spectrum than most sovereign grace ministries. One of its trade > marks is a > willingness to discuss anything that sincere Calvinists believe. We > rarely > take an absolute "position" and refuse to look any further. We can > agree to > disagree with what we consider to be true Calvinists. We stopped > the > discussion with Preterits and also with hyper/hyper Calvinism. > > I personally cannot accept the Charismatic interpretation of the > ministry of > the Holy Spirit nor can I accept a lot of the things that are > written by > some people who oppose them altogether. I know personally and in a > very deep > way, some 100% Calvinists that claim to have spoken in tongues and I > have > not the slightest reason to doubt either them or their experience. I > see no > necessity for the so-called gifts being in the church today but I > also do > not see that "the Bible teaches the gifts forever ceased with the > full canon > of Scripture being given." If God wants to re-institute the gifts, > so be it. > > Mr. Terrel has surely raised the subject in a very gracious manner > that > invites open discussion. I agree with his concern as to where it > will lead > him in his personal life and among his friends. I remember reading > Boettner's book on Predestination. Dr. Boettner mailed me a copy of > his book > on Post-millennium and I waited five years to read it. At that time > I would > have rather died than become a post-mil, and since I had the > greatest of > respect for Dr. Boettner's writing, I was literally scared to read > his book. > > If the Bible teaches that we should speak in tongues, or even that > this gift > would help us in our ministry as preachers, then it would seem we > are duty > bound to start seeking that gift. > > So far I have been greatly impressed with the experience of a few, > very few, > charismatics but have not yet been convinced by exegesis of > Scriopture. I > can, and do, respect the experience of some but refuse to be led to > seeking > something on the basis of some one's testimony. I feel justified in > saying, > "lead me with Scripture." > > Here are a few comments on Joe's post. > > > If I ever hear of anyone who preaches the gospel of God's free > and > > sovereign grace and also practices these gifts, I will give it > another > > look." > > I believe it is a legitimate question to ask why the Spirit of > TRUTH, that > charaasmatics claim to have in a way and to a degree that we do not > have, > know so very little about the theology of the Doctrines of Grace. > > > Well, here we have a group which presents themselves as both > sovereign > grace > > and charismatic. I have known about them for a few years, but > have not > > actually looked deeply into what they say and do. snip snip > > > > 1. Peter said that all who repent and are baptized for the > remission of > sins > > do receive the gift of the Spirit; so we must conclude that all > those that > > repent and are baptized for the remission of sins actually do have > th > Spirit > > of God in all His NC presence and power. > > Does "do have th Spirit of God in ALL His NC presence and power" > necesarily > follow your first statement???? > > > > 2. It does appear that the use of the "miracle gifts" did wane > even during > > the time of the apostles, and Paul. himself, urged a zeal for the > better > > gifts which involve the edifying of the church. These gifts are > not as > > "flashy" as tongues and healing, but are much more useful. > > Is "does APPEAR" the grounds for an argument? > > > 3. It would appear from the transition of 1 Cor. 12 to 1 Cor. 13 > that we > > need not emphasize gifts at all, that is, by seeking them out and > > puposefully putting them into action, for living by the principle > of love > > toward one another will cause these gifts to appear when and if > they are > > useful to the assembly. > > Agreed, but does it really prove anything. > > > 4. That being said, there is no compelling Scriptural argument > tot he > > effectt hat the "miracle gifts" have utterly ceased and shall > never > appear. > > Right conclusion. > > > > > 5. The church got along fine without the "miralce gifts" for > hundreds of > > years. > > Could it have gotten along twice as well with the gifts? > > snip snip > > > All of this brings me to what I believe is an important question > which I > > have never really sought out. What is the difference between the > ministry > > of the Holy Spirit in the NC as opposed to the OC. > > This has been touched on in the chat room but has never discussed in > depth. > That is definately a NCT topic. Like you, I look forward to such a > discussion. > > JGR > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > >