Dear John,

Thanks for your kind post.

Allow me to comment on some of your comments:

Me 1st post:  If I ever hear of anyone who preaches the gospel of God's free 
and sovereign grace and also practices these gifts, I will give it another 
look."

You: I believe it is a legitimate question to ask why the Spirit of TRUTH, 
that charaasmatics claim to have in a way and to a degree that we do not 
have, know so very little about the theology of the Doctrines of Grace.

Me 2nd post: Exactly my point, though I like your addition of a Scriptural 
point to back it up.  In discussing any matter theology, I do not waste my 
time with those who do not agree on the fundamental truths of the gospel. 
Why should I consult the dead for the living?

____________

Me 1st post:  1. Peter said that all who repent and are baptized for the 
remission of sins do receive the gift of the Spirit; so we must conclude 
that all those that repent and are baptized for the remission of sins 
actually do have the Spirit of God in all His NC presence and power.

You:  Does "do have the Spirit of God in ALL His NC presence and power" 
necesarily follow your first statement????

Me 2nd post:  I am assuming you are making a point of formal logic.  As I 
was writing that remark, I thought, "Someone's going to point out that I 
added content in my conclusion that was not present in my premise.'  But I 
was rushed, so I didn't edit.  Let me clarify.  When Peter said, "You will 
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit," it seems inescapable that he was 
referring to the Holy Spirit in this new manifestation.  The first part of 
his sermon was an explanation of the apostles' ability to speak in languages 
they had not learned in the normal way.  The prophecy of Joel quoted by 
Peter refers to God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh.  Joel's prophecy 
goes on to explain the significance of "all flesh" by categorizing the 
various groups included.  These unusual manifestations of the Spirit would 
no longer be confined to a few of God's people with a heavy emphasis on men 
as opposed to women and older over younger and free over slave.  People 
frome very walk of natural life would experience this manifestation of the 
Spirit of God.  So, when Peter speaks og the gift of the Holy Spoirit, it is 
only reasonable to assume he refers to the Holy Spirit coming in the way 
Joel prophesied and the apostles were at that time displaying.

Furthermore, the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate and illuminate must, 
of necessity, precede repentance, so it cannot be a consequence of it.  Some 
other aspect of the Holy Spirit's beyond regenration and illumination is in 
view.  So, I added some words to further defined Pater's "gift of the 
Spirit" to "the Spirit of God in all His NC presence and power."  By this I 
do not means that the Holy Spirit empowers every believer with every 
possible gift; only that the special NC aspect of the Spirits presence and 
power is given to everyone who repents and is baptized for the remission of 
sin.

Me 1st post:. It does appear that the use of the "miracle gifts" did wane 
even during the time of the apostles, and Paul. himself, urged a zeal for 
the better gifts which involve the edifying of the church.  These gifts are 
not as "flashy" as tongues and healing, but are much more useful.

You: Is "does APPEAR" the grounds for an argument?

Me 2nd post:  Not if we are going with a strictly deductive argument. 
However, some conclusions must be proven in the same manner as a court case 
where many bits of evidence are brought forth which lean a certain direction 
but none are conclusive by themselves.  Such conclusions cannot be 
"enfroced" as dogmatically as a purely deductive argument might be; but they 
do offer some guidance in our seqarch for the answer and can give us at 
least at least a predisposition to a certain conclusion provided there is no 
contervailing evidence.

_________________________

Me 1st post  The church got along fine without the "miralce gifts" for 
hundreds of years.

You:  Could it have gotten along twice as well with the gifts?

Me 2nd post  Maybe the statement should be restated.  The church go on fine 
for hundreds of years without the USE of the "miracle gifts"  Whatever gifts 
the Holy Spirit gives to His church, the church has always had them.  The 
questions then comes, can the church have a gift and not know it or use it. 
?  A similar point is this: It is interesting to note that when God was 
pleased to revive the truth of His grace in the days of the reformation, He 
did not also revive the manifestation of the miracle gifts as was seen in 
the early church.  While not deductively conclusive, it is another of those 
points which makes us lean in a particualr direction.

Well, I need to get to prayer meeting.

Joe T