Bob, I appreciated your post.

However, let me ask your to consider further your comment, 'All in all, I
consider Pentecostal/Charismatic folks my brothers and sisters in the Lord
(as I do my Roman Catholic relatives), if they believe solely on the Lord
Jesus Christ.'

This might be taken to equate a difference of spiritual understanding
amongst brethren - Pentecostals and ourselves - with difference over
foundational beliefs between true and false religion - Romanism and
Evangelicalism.

Sure, a true Christian may remain in Romanism, but he/she will not believe
the doctrines of Rome, otherwise they are denying the gospel.  They must be
dishonest Catholics or dishonest Christians.  Same applies to Mormons I know
who speak warmly of Christ.

They should be so clear in their profession of Christ that the false church
will repent and reform, or will cast them out.  Our Jewish brethren faced
the same problem in NT times.

In Him

Ian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "B&G Cauley" <rgcauley@...>
To: "Sounders" <soundofgrace@...>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:24 AM
Subject: [unspam] [soundofgrace] Sign Gifts Today ?


Since I'm new to NCT, and I'm just learning, I find it interesting that
Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine could be condoned.  I'll admit I'm bias,
having been a former Charismatic, and having attended a Pentecostal Bible
college for several years.

I am now a "partial cessationist," I believe that God still does miracles
and He still heals physically by the prayer of faith; however, I do not
believe in "faith healers" and I believe the office of "Apostle" has ceased
along with the revelational and sign gifts (i.e. tongues, interpretation of
tongues, prophecy etc.) in the sense that God now guides his church by His
inspired Word.

I believe that the sign gifts ceased, and are not now applicable for several
reasons, below are just a few:

1. We have the completed revelation and standard for the church in the
Inspired canonical "Word."
a. Now there is no need for "revelational" guidance.

2. Because tongues1 were a sign to unbelievers (especially Jews).
a. A covenant sign to the Jews, marking the end of the Old Covenant and
specifically to the generation that God held accountable for "the guilt of
all righteous blood shed on earth, from righteous Abel ... to Zechariah (Mt
23:35)." Jesus said His judgment would fall on that generation (verse 36 and
24:34), which it did. The sign of tongues-speaking was in one respect an
eschatological event, prophetically proclaiming the impending judgement
coming in 70 A.D.

3. Another purpose of the gift of tongues was to reveal that salvation was
to include the Gentiles, Acts 10.

4. The gifts were conveyed by the Apostles.
The following extraction came from an excellent article at
http://www.diakrisis.org/tongues.htm from under the Qualifications of an
Apostle heading.
"Once the N.T. canon was completed and all the Apostles were dead, the gifts
which served for a sign and for revelation were finished. There was no
further need for piecemeal prophetic revelation to be given now that God's
Word was complete. There was no further need for signs to be given to Israel
for authenticating or judicial reasons, as that national state had been
wound up by the Lord. Neither was there anyone available to impart or
distribute these gifts, because the Apostolate was no longer in  existence."
I am a member of a group called ExCharisma, which is a "recovery" group
consisting of former Pentecostal/Charismatics who feel that they were misled
and in fact were subject to 'spiritual abuse' and are now in need of
spiritual rehabilitation.  Their testimonies consistently reveal from their
own voluntary admissions that they faked gifts, prophesies, healings etc.
Below are some excerpts from some recent posts by these former Charismatics:

Once I was convinced that tongues in the modern church couldn't be the gift
described in the New Testament, so much of the Charismatic belief system
falls apart. For a start, what I believed was communication with God was
most likely nonsense. From that came the realization that I was in error.
From that came the knowledge that the people teaching me were not teaching
truth, which led me to realize these people were not led by the Holy Spirit.
I could go on and on.
------------------
If tongues and prophecy are revelational gifts, and if they have not ceased,
then the Bible is still being written!

Thus the threat to the fundamentals of the Christian
faith, as we clearly see in Mormonism.  By the way, the Mormons spoke in
tongues almost a century before the Pentecostals did.

The Mormons took the extrabiblical revelation to its
conclusion, with the Book of Mormon, which they
consider more inspired than the Bible.

All in all, I consider Pentecostal/Charismatic folks my brothers and sisters
in the Lord (as I do my Roman Catholic relatives), if they believe solely on
the Lord Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I have little sympathy for their
pneumatology.

Bob C.