Nice examples but apples are not oranges. Not one has the phrase to "TREAT
as" which completely alters the meaning. Sorry, apples are not oranges.

Please, just answer two simple questions. The man in Corinth who was put out
and "TREATED AS a pagan" and came back. Now here is the question that should
settle all.

Was he during his time out of the church, while he was TREATED as a pagan, a
pagan?

Yes?

No?

Or...

Was he a brother under discipline being treated AS a pagan?

Yes?

No?

It really amazes me that this concept is so difficult to grasp. I am not
sure what preconceived notions make it impossible for some. In earlier posts
I was told that he IS simple because Jesus told us to treat him a certain
way. I do not think you will find many commentators who will agree, if there
even is one.

Wm.


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Fuchs [mailto:SteveF_MS@...]
Sent: 25 April 2005 00:58
To: soundofgrace@...
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] as = is


From: William and Dorothy Oosterman
again, to "treat as" is not the same as "is". I may as a matter of
discipline turn away from my child for a period of time and "treat him as
if" he was not mine. Is he still my child? Yes. of course. Treat as is not
IS.

William, the thing you are inserting is the word 'if', but it's not there.

Consider:
Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of
heaven from God, prepared AS a bride adorned for her husband.
(Are we a bride, or just dressed like one?)

Mat 14:5 And when he desired to put him to death, he feared the multitude
because they counted him AS a prophet. (did they believe he WAS one, or that
he was just acting?)

And Mat 24:14 And this gospel kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world
AS a witness to all nations (Is it a real witness to all, or just
masquerading?)

And Mar 10:45 For even the son of man did not come to be served, but to
serve and to give His life AS a ransom for many (IS it a ransom, or just a
fake?)

And Mar 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose
wife will she be?  For the seven had her AS a wife.  (Was she married to all
of them, or just pretending?)

And John 1:7 This one came AS a witness, to bear witnesses concerning the
Light, so that all might believe through him.  (Was he a witness, or merely
acting like one?)

And John 12:46 I have come AS a light into the world, so that whoever
believes on me should not remain in darkness.  (Is he light to us, or just
pretending to be?)

William, what's missing in all these examples is the 'IF' you've inserted in
Mat 18, and it's not there either.

Mat 18:17 ...let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The verse doesn't even directly address how you treat him.  NIV is the only
translation to insert that.  The others all simply say 'let him be to you'.
'Let him be to you' means 'consider him to be'  - as far as you can know.
Based on the evidence, you're no longer to consider him a brother - until
his repentance proves otherwise.

William, you've inserted an 'as IF' and attached it to 'treat' in place of
'let him be to you'.
If someone says; 'let her be to you as a wife', they mean let her be your
wife.  Make it real.
If they say; 'let him be to you as a son', they mean make him a genuine son.
Make it real.
If they say; 'let him be to you as a boss', they mean work for him as an
employee.  Make it real.
If they say; 'let Him be to you as a God', they mean believe Him to be your
creator.

If they inserted an 'as IF' in any of these, the meanings change the way you
want Mat 18 to change.

But let's do everyone else a favor and drop it.
I'll do my best to refrain from responding again on this one.

Steve


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...>
To: <soundofgrace@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] as = is


> Steve Fuchs wrote:
> >AS and IS are not opposing descriptors.
>
> Revelation 21:3.
>
> :-)
>
> Chad Bresson
> Xenia, OH
>
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