One last time: Was the man in Corinth, while under discipline, a pagan or a
goat?

What happened when he repented and returned to the fold?

PLEEAAASSEEEEE. Answer the question, it has been avoided long enough - Chad?
Steve?



Brothers, what is frustrating is that when someone on this list makes a
statement, and I or others, challenge it in a sincere and logical fashion,
we just may  get a run around for the next weeks. What a colossal  waste of
time.

Example:

Someone says that the man who is put out in Matt. 18:15-20 is not only to be
treated as a pagan, but is a pagan.

I point out the obvious flaw. What if he is saved all along and this is
proven as he comes back - like the man in Corinth- and these brothers bend
over backwards and do deductive gymnastics to hold to their original
statement. They do not answer the question. In another post I make a comment
about the new covenant and they change the subject demand to know if Jesus
was drinking his own blood. So I finally did answer their tangential
question. They have still not answered mine, the above questions.

I sincerely doubt any headway will be made in NCT as long as this talking
past others and this refusal to actually answer a simple question exists.
That is sad.

I ask the same question over and over (driving other members nuts - please
forgive me - I may already be in danger of being excommunicated from this
list and henceforth considered to be a pagan and or a goat:  :) ) hoping
they will be able to see by their answer that they have made a statement
that is not true. I even brought God into it - pointing out only He can make
the kind of pronouncement made by these brothers "the man IS a pagan" and
some went further and declared him a GOAT (which is to declare him
non-elect - no Calvinist I know would dare take that responsibility on) and
again I proved that this is not biblical. Only God knows the ultimate end.

As silly as the  whole thing may seem, I persisted as I believe it has
serious implications in terms of the local church. That is where my heart is
and we faced this in a serious manner last year.

i) If as some on the list declared - I think two brothers said this - he is
a goat - why would the local church still pray for him. I do not know of
anyone who is a goat for certain but if I ever did I would not waste my
time.

ii) If this man (hopefully still saved and regenerate) is under discipline
and treated as a pagan, we must still fervently pray for his restoration and
do this with compassion and real love. The flock should never sense that we
have written them off as pagans and goats. They should see firmness, we have
banned them,  but also that it was done with great love.

I resent legalism (having been impacted) and I resent judgmentalism for the
same reason. I am glad some churches still practice discipline. But I resent
it when they write of a man who may well be a brother by saying he IS a
pagan/goat. How dare you, a mere man, take of the Almighty God's
prerogative. How dare you push Him aside and usurp His Authority, as if you
knew the secrets of a man's heart.

This issue is practical and important. We can bat around ideas but next
Sunday I have to get up and face my flock. Do I tell them the people we have
excommunicated (for good Biblical reasons)

i)are GOATS (i.e. damned) or PAGANS (i.e. unregenerate)

or
ii) That we are to stay away from them, avoid them BECAUSE we love them and
hope that they will give evidence of having been truly saved in the first
place by repentance.


I am not just picking a theological joust. This is serious and has immediate
implications.

I will say this, any church pastored by any man, from this list or where
ever, who got up and followed through with this idea that treat AS = IS, and
announced this from the pulpit concerning a straying professing Christian,
well, I would be right out of there! I do not like pastors taking on the
role of God Almighty (and The Pope) and say about another sinner what only
God can say. I wonder now.... will the question finally be answered? I know
where all the commentators stand - at least the ones I have read. Where do
you stand.

Wm.