Harry Can you explain what you meant when you wrote: "Moses is still be preached" I don't want to misunderstand you. Thanks Trevor -------Original Message------- From: soundofgrace@... Date: 30 July 2005 18:12:28 To: soundofgrace@... Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Christian music & worship: moe Moe, thank you for your response. I couldn't agree with you more. We call the room we meet in a "sanctuary" and many churches even have an "altar" call. Moses is still be preached. No longer is the pastor the "worship leader" as now that job belongs to the song leader. Legalism abounds and I have to admit I find that I still have some legalistic tendencies which I know I have demonstrated here in the past. Your last point about preaching is so true. Still we find Christ's teaching in a topical approach. I have been praying about the possibility of preaching in an established church and my mind goes over how I would take on that task. My first thoughts would be to attempt a topical-expository approach to go over the basic doctrines to bring those there up to a certain level of teaching. Then I would go into a book study and would most likely start with either the Gospel of John or one of the shorter Pauline epistles such as Philippians. I agree that music has taken the center stage and I long for the day when the music was tailored to complement and prepare our hearts for the message. I am not against singing a new song unto the Lord that is both upbeat and sound to the Bible and would hope that who ever picks out the music would get with who ever is speaking and work together. I have heard pastors from the pulpit say how God must be working as he was so surprised at how much the last song we sang ties in with the message he is about to give. Makes me wonder about how they prepare for a very important hour each week! I agree that we need to do things decently and in order but as a living stone in the Church/Body of Christ I think we find ourselves wanting to return to the old ways of the Old Covenant rather than rejoicing in being set free in Christ. "So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law." I would like to hear more of your comments as well as other's comments on worship in the church today. Harry ic2@... wrote: My Brethren, Harry's post introduced an interesting line of thought. It's a topic loaded with potential to wake the dead. Just recently a dear brother in Christ pointed me to an audio message presented by the White Horse Inn radio program. Central to the conversation of the guests and crew was how modern churches currently do worship. Of particular interest to this listener is how the speakers innocently linked “doing” worship with music. The topic peaked my interest because of late the wife and I have found ourselves looking for a place to gather with the Lord s people. During recent weeks we've visited just about every church in our area that claims to be evangelical. The style of music and the time devoted to doing worship through singing has taken center stage in some places. True expository teaching is just not heard. One of the program guests mentioned how a particular church went so far as to tailor different services to one's preference to music style. I wasn't too shocked by this revelation. Churches have often reflected the culture of the people who frequent their establishments. At times those who have deemed themselves to be the orthodox and most biblical have imposed the culture of a past generation on another. What stood out to me was how worship in our western evangelical culture is more often than not defined by musical style or preference. It wasn't long before my rusty wheels began to question how our New Covenant Scriptures should define worship. After some thought with my sciptures opened I concluded the heart of the problem is how believing communities go about seeking to employ the Old Covenant model of worship in one form or another. True worship as defined and expressed in the New is quite foreign to worship enjoyed under the Old. It's a different ball game altogether. We give a lot of lip service to "Worship in Spirit and in Truth" but in practice our worship fails to meet the New Covenant standard that Christ has set forth. Take our Lord's conversation with the woman at the well as a launch point. It's our Lord's first and best hint that something big is just down the road for the believing community. Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming--and now is here--when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." John's Gospel 4:21-24 We should agree that in spite of our Lord's clear teaching on the substance of true worship believing communities in the New Covenant era still relate their worship to the old covenant model such as: * a place * the order * the style * and the who We will never get worship right until we more fully understand our Master's words to the woman at the well. Take a good good look at us. We have church buildings dedicated to worship (Houses of worship?!). In place of the Sons of Korah (Neh 12:45) we have our robed choirs or leisure looking praise bands. And within Reformed circles we have the acceptable choices such as the Psalter, the Trinity Hymnal, Praise sheets, and a growing number of lesser music materials produced by a publisher in New York, Chicago or London. In some circles they have elevated talented brethren to be pastors of the music ministry. Where in God's Word do you go to discover such a gift and calling in the New? Nowhere in the New Testament scriptures do we find apostolic teaching defining the ministry of music. It's just not there. Things have gotten so out of hand we have actually seen the birth of an industry dedicated to the creation of “Christian” music. At the very least let's label it for what it is. It's a business! Complicating everything is this thing called the church growth movement and its offspring. Their main focus is how they do worship to be relevant. The frosting on this cake is how this pursuit for relevant worship and its application is now being arranged and lead by a growing band of professionals. Our friend John Piper was correct to say pastors are not professionals. We dare not say our pastors have inherited the duties of the Levitical priests. The same must be said of those who would “lead us in worship.” They are not to be professionals following in the train of Asap or the Sons of Korah. I believe the pursuit of relevance through worship style is a problem primarily because it is built upon the imaginary Old Covenant model. In the New Testament scriptures music is to be used for the express purpose of encouraging and instructing “one another” and that's a far cry from the Old Covenant model. Music's place of importance in God's scheme of things for His New Covenant Church is much lower than where we place it. I'm in no way discounting a talented brother or sister bringing their songs to the weekly gathering, I just can't understand how church leadership has programmed just about everything (especially the music, readings, and message) for the worship hour and then have the guts to say their services are Spirit led. The Old Covenant model of worship requires an order guided and exercised by a few while the New Covenant encourages full participation by all of His Spirit filled priests. What we have driving many of our churches is the product engineered for church growth at the expense of substance. In many instances they have replaced the feeding of God's flock so they can entertain the goats. I can hear the protests. Yes, the Church of Christ does enjoy liberty but that liberty should never be used to destroy or diminish the clear teaching of the Christ concerning the present age of the Spirit. Christ has set us free so we could obey. If you can justify a return to the Old Covenant model of worship then you might as well justify circumcision. I sincerely believe cultural differences and the pursuit to be relevant should never divide the Body of Christ in her beliefs and practices. His people are one in Christ in spite of their varied cultural and generational influences. Nothing should ever hinder God's New Covenant people from coming together for mutual edification. Eliminate the Old Covenant model for worship and hopefully you'll progress as a people towards New Covenant life in the Spirit just as our Lord taught the woman at the well. This movement Harry mentioned within Covenant Theology is providing nothing new. Their view of worship and orthodoxy is built squarely on their view of the Old Covenant model and it will only serve to divide the people of God a little further. Why not just dump the strong emphasis on music and musicians and apply the following examples and Biblical instruction? And they were continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine, and in the breaking of the loaves, and in prayers. Act 2:42 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Eph 5:15-21 ESV) So sorry for the length of the above but I just couldn't help myself. ;-) Moe -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace From: H Dorrington <hjdinfl@...> To: soundofgrace@... Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Should we drop all Christian music and sing only the Psalms? Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:41:21 +0000 There is a movement within Covenant Theology to drop singing in corporate worship all "uninspired" songs and to sing only the Psalms. They offer some long arguments to support their position and I would agree that there are many hymns in our hymn books that have questionable theology. http://www.psalms4u.com/Merchant2/merchant mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CCP&Category_Code=DW Your mentioning of the KJOnly group is an interesting statement. Harry John Reisinger <24jreisinger26@...> wrote: The Psalms which are put to music take quite a bit of poetic licence. If the Psalter is indeed the Word of God, then we should be able to preach out the Psalter and use it as proof texts. But then what would the King James only people say. JGR ----- Original Message ----- From: "H Dorrington" To: Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: [soundofgrace] Should we drop all Christian music and sing only the Psalms? > "Are we wrong to sing in our worship anything other than the Psalms?" > > I would have to agree that there are many "hymns" in our hymn books that > I scratch my head and wonder where they came up with that. I can't sing > them. I have to stand there quiet as I can't sing what I don't believe. > On the other hand the Psalms are all the inspired Word of God and written > to be sung... > > Any thoughts? > > Harry > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace . -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace