>3) Where the New Testament declares the meaning or fulfillment of an OT >passage, its apostolic authority overrules any other understanding on the OT >meaning, no matter how unexpected the NT interpretation seems to be. I believe this sets up a false tension between the OT and the NT that is not reflected in the text. While the NT is both apostolic and authoritative, it is not "overruling" the OT. It cannot simply because the OT is the type of the NT antitype. The OT is *grounded* in the NT. The apostolic interpretation *always* is in keeping with the OT context... i.e. the NT is a New Covenant commentary on the OT. There are no examples of interpretations of the OT in the NT that strips the OT of its original or intended Messianic context. >Prophetically, where the NT cites the Old, we find a) natural events not >fulfilled exactly as described =11 times; b) fulfilled naturally and >spiritually not as described =16 times; c) fulfilled spiritually only, not >as OT describes =43 times; d) fulfillments cited in NT as generally "what >the prophets have said" always fulfilled spiritually = 11 times. IMHO, b, c, and d cannot be sustained in the examples (prooftexts) given. All of the NT fulfillment examples provided are fulfillments per the OT description. IOW, the Messianic intent of every jot and tittle of the OT is either fulfilled or explained in the NT passages. The NT authors are using these passages *because* the original intent of the OT prophecies pointed forward to what the authors are writing about, not *in spite of* whatever the context of the OT passages. There are *no* examples of non-contextual use of the OT in the NT. FWIW, I am not comfortable speaking of "spiritual" vs. "natural" (which places me at odds with most covenantalists) because it sets up a false dichotomy between the two and fails to do justice to the incarnation. Because Christ had and *still* has a physical body his fulfillment of the OT prophecies was *not* spiritual but both physical and heavenly. The way spiritual is used to describe fulfillment in most theologies does not account for the fact that the heavenlies in the upper register contains a physical element: Christ himself. Now we speak of heaven as the spiritual realm because it is through the Spirit that we are united to Christ in the heavenlies. But that does *not* mean that Christ's incarnation and all that it fulfilled is any less *real* or *physical* (natural). IOW, we need to rethink just what we mean by "spiritual" fulfillment... for example, the people of God as the temple or house of God is just as *physical* and just as *real* as the temple that stood in Jerusalem. It's not that the concept has been spiritualized in the church. It's that the *temple* was a shadow of a greater reality (Christ as temple, then the church united to Christ as temple). The definition of *temple* has been "adjusted" to the NC covenant *reality*. Our problem is that because we are earth-bound (and fallen) creatures of "sight" we've defined the Jerusalem temple as the natural reality, when in fact, if we were to understand the temple implications contained in Genesis 1-3 rightly, we would see Christ and his church as the true "natural reality" of which the Jerusalem temple was merely a shadow. The same could be said of Christ as the new Israel, the last Adam, the new Torah, etc. etc. and the church's exemplification of those realities in her union to Christ. Where we cripple ourselves is when we set ourselves up to miss the New Covenant reality by insisting that the OT authors understood the earth-bound physical shadows as ends in and of themselves, and therefore could not have known anything but a one-to-one correlation between what they were *seeing* in their present and the future. And *that* happens when we don't acknowledge that every jot and tittle of the OT is from, of, by, about, and points toward Christ. The OT is comprehensively and exhaustively Messianic in its authorial intent. It is to our hermeneutical (and Christological/eschatological/soteriological detriment) to disregard that reality. My two cents. Chad Richard Bresson Xenia, OH http://breusswane.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken and Beth Mick To: soundofgrace@... Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: [soundofgrace] Re: Hermeneutical technique Doug, Terry, Chad, et al., New Covenant theology as it applies to escatology is based on three premises; 1) This present age is the promised glory that was to follow the cross (Lk. 24;26, i Pet. 1;11, etc. ) foretold by the OT writers (Acts 3:24, I Pet. 1:10, etc.) 2) All interpretation should find its climax and purpose of prophecy in Christ and His seed and to the praise of His glory - as per Eph. 1-2. 3) Where the New Testament declares the meaning or fulfillment of an OT passage, its apostolic authority overrules any other understanding on the OT meaning, no matter how unexpected the NT interpretation seems to be. Prophetically, where the NT cites the Old, we find a) natural events not fulfilled exactly as described =11 times; b) fulfilled naturally and spiritually not as described =16 times; c) fulfilled spiritually only, not as OT describes =43 times; d) fulfillments cited in NT as generally "what the prophets have said" always fulfilled spiritually = 11 times. a) Ex. 12:46; Numb. 9:12 - - John 19:36; Ps. 16:10 - - Acts 2:27, 13:35; Ps. 2:18 - - Mt. 27:35; Ps. 102:25-27 - - -Heb. 1;10-12; Is. 7:14 - - - Mt. 1:22-23; Is. 40:3-5 - - -Mt. 3:3, Lk. 3:4; Jer. 31:15 - - -Mt. 2:17; Zech. 11:12-13-Mt. 27:8-10; Zech 12:10 - - - Jn. 19:37; Zech 13:7 - - -Mt. 26:31 b) Gen. 3:15 - - -Is. 53:10, Heb. 2:14; Gen. 17:8, 13:15, 22:18 - - - Acts 3:25, Gal. 3:14-17; Duet. 18:18-19 - - Acts 3:23; Is. 6:9-13 - - - mt. 13:14, Jn. 12;40, Acts 28:26; Is. 25;8 - - -I Cor. 15:54; Is. 28:11 - - I Cor. 14;21; Is. 29:18, 35:5-6 - - - Mt. 11:5-6, Lk. 7:22-23; Is. 42:1-3 - - -Mt. 12:17-21; Is. 53:4 - - Mt. 8:17; Is. 53:7-8 - - - Acts 8:32; Is. 53:12 - - Mk. 15:27-28. Lk. 22:37; Micah 5;2 - - Mt. 2:5-6; Hab. 1:5 - - Acts 13:41; Zech. 9:9 - - Mt. 21; Mal. 3:1, 4:5-6 - - Mt . 11;10-14, 17:11-12 c) Gen. 17:5, 35:11 - - Rom. 4:17; Gen. 22;8 - - Jn 1;29, Rev. 5 Gen. 22:17 - - Mt. 16:18 1 will skip a few for sake of space and time and head into Isaiah. Is. 8:14, 28:16 - - -I Pet. 2;6-8; Is. 8:17, 18 - - Heb. 2;13; Is. 9:1-2 - - Mt. 4:13-17; Is. 10:20-22 - - Rom. 9:27, 32-33; ISAIAH 11:10 - - - Rom. 15:12; 29:10 - - -Rom. 11:8; Is. 29:14 - I Cor, 1:18-19; Is. 29:13-14- Mt. 15:7-9; Is. 45:23 - - - Phil. 2:10-11; Is. 49:8 - - 2 cor. 6;2 Is. 52:7, 53;1 - Rom. 10:15-16, Is. 65:1 - - - Rom. 10:20 etc. . . . .Joel 2:28-32 - - - Acts 2:16-21 plus many more. d) Mt. 13;17; Lk.1;70; Acts 3:24; Acts 13:32; Rom. 16:26-27; I Pet. 1;10-12 etc. notice every OT prophecy of event to be fulfilled is described in the natural. The majority of prophecies have their PRINCIPLE fulfillment in the spiritual realm. EVERY OT PROPHECY WHOSE FULFILMENT IS CITED IN THE NT has CHRIST as the central figure, or the prasie of His eternal purpose. Every OT prophecy fulfilled in the New never has exact literal (natural0 fufillment. The Nw covenant should use SOLA SCRIPTURA as its hermeneutical basis. Hope this helps: A more exhaustive list can be supplied. By Grace alone, Ken Mick -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace -- Read the Sound of Grace pages at http://www.soundofgrace.com To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... To view our online archive go to our web page at http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace