Chad wrote: IMHO, it is the failure to see this distinction (between *professing sheep > who are really goats* and *real sheep*) that has given us the broad > categories of second blessing, victorious Christian living, Finneyism > (I-surrender-allism), non-Lordship, and Keswickian theology. Goats > (wolves > in sheeps clothing, according to Acts 20) are never as obvious as these > groups make them. I don't intend to ignite another spark that has been debated before, but it would seem to me the same issue exists with discipline. Discipline is God's means for dealing with (professing) goats, who become apparent to us as goats at least as best we can know, and yet it is rarely implemented scripturally. I sat through a brief Sunday school teaching on discipline in a reformed church recently, and heard a bunch of extra stuff about how excommunication is like the spiritual death penalty, so we are careful to impose less harsh discipline such as restriction from the table for maybe a few months to avoid needing the death penalty and give the person time to reflect and so-as to not rush to judgment. I was also told the punishment is tailored to fit the offense. When I asked where in scripture they get that, I was told that these steps are 'our' attempt to fill in the gaps which scripture doesn't give, in order that we remain in compliance with not rushing to judgment. It seemed to me they forgot the purpose for discipline was in hopes the person would come running back in repentance and thus be welcomed. As well as forgetting that the only offense scripture tells us to discipline is refusal to repent of anything validated by one, then 2-3, then the church at large. But that's a whole different topic. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...> To: <soundofgrace@...> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > > But doesn't this very need to test myself coincide with: > > > > a) that all of us start out as goats prior to regeneration > > b) we become more and more like our shepherd via process? > > Yes. But most, if not all, of the warnings that we find in the NT are > aimed > at a) and not b). The text presumes that those who are truly sheep *will* > become more and more like our shepherd via the process. > > IMHO, it is the failure to see this distinction (between *professing sheep > who are really goats* and *real sheep*) that has given us the broad > categories of second blessing, victorious Christian living, Finneyism > (I-surrender-allism), non-Lordship, and Keswickian theology. Goats > (wolves > in sheeps clothing, according to Acts 20) are never as obvious as these > groups make them. It's not like the goats among us are wearing black hats > and the sheep are wearing white hats. The goats are wearing white hats > and > many think they are Christians when they are not. In Hebrews and 1 John, > those warnings serve not only to get them to examine themselves, but also > to > expose them among the sheep. The warnings are *not* primarily, if at all, > about moving Christians from point A to point B in their Christian walk... > that's the mistake made by the above groups. The warnings are much more > *stark* and *sinister* than that. > > Pastor Chad Richard Bresson > Clearcreek Chapel > Springboro, OH > http://breusswane.blogspot.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Fuchs" <SteveF_MS@...> > To: <soundofgrace@...> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 10:50 PM > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > > > > But doesn't this very need to test myself coincide with: > > > > a) that all of us start out as goats prior to regeneration > > b) we become more and more like our shepherd via process? > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...> > > To: <soundofgrace@...> > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:17 AM > > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > > > > > >> Evangelism. Point them to Christ so that they become sheep. The > >> warnings > >> keep them from deluding themselves that they are sheep, even though > >> they've > >> made a profession and are members of the visible body. If I am not > >> thinking > >> and acting like a sheep, it could very well be that I am not one and I > >> need > >> to make sure that I am one. > >> > >> It is this that Peter has in mind of "being *diligent* to making our > >> calling > >> and election sure". This is why we are to "examine ourselves" and > >> "test > >> ourselves" to see whether we are "in the faith". The warnings in > >> Hebrews > >> and James serve that function. God's divinely ordained means of > >> preserving > >> His saints is through our perserverence. > >> > >> Pastor Chad Richard Bresson > >> Clearcreek Chapel > >> Springboro, OH > >> http://breusswane.blogspot.com > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Steve Fuchs" <SteveF_MS@...> > >> To: <soundofgrace@...> > >> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 12:29 AM > >> Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > >> > >> > >> > Chad, > >> > > >> > I'm just curious your thoughts. > >> > > >> > What's the point of warning goats? > >> > > >> > Sincerely, > >> > Steve > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...> > >> > To: <soundofgrace@...> > >> > Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:08 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > >> > > >> > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "H Dorrington" <hjdinfl@...> > >> >> > Oh yes, the passage that tell us that the goats make great > >> >> > teachers! > >> >> > Not. > >> >> > It is rather describing those who are spiritual "babes" in Christ > >> >> > . > >> >> > >> >> I disagree. In giving them the benefit of the doubt, he is still > >> >> holding > >> >> out the possibility that they are in danger of neglecting their > >> >> salvation. > >> >> What looks like a babe in Christ, if it never grows, is an imposter > >> >> (Heb. > >> >> 6:6-8 - same thought, same context). If they stay "dull of hearing" > >> >> will > >> >> "end up being burned" (Heb. 6:8). > >> >> > >> >> The contrasts of the warning passages are almost exclusively, > >> >> through > >> >> the > >> >> whole of the NT, between sheep and goats and almost never between > >> >> categories > >> >> of Christians. Those "categories" just don't exist. > >> >> > >> >> Pastor Chad Richard Bresson > >> >> Clearcreek Chapel > >> >> Springboro, OH > >> >> http://breusswane.blogspot.com > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Read the Sound of Grace pages at > >> >> http://www.soundofgrace.com > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > >> >> soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > >> >> > >> >> To view our online archive go to our web page at > >> >> http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > >> > http://www.soundofgrace.com > >> > > >> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > >> > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > >> > > >> > To view our online archive go to our web page at > >> > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> Read the Sound of Grace pages at > >> http://www.soundofgrace.com > >> > >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > >> soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > >> > >> To view our online archive go to our web page at > >> http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > > > > > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > >