IMHO, "deserving of" doesn't change the significance of "of wrath". Paul says the same thing in Titus 3:2 when he says "we ourselves *were* once" before rattling off one of his lists describing goats, ending in "but when... he saved us". Pastor Chad Richard Bresson Clearcreek Chapel Springboro, OH http://breusswane.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <24jreisinger26@...> To: <soundofgrace@...> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > Is it significant that the text says, "We were by NATURE" children of > wrath? > Were we not, and are we not yet, those who by "nature" deserve wrath? JGR > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chad Richard Bresson" <breusswane@...> > To: <soundofgrace@...> > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:06 AM > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons > > > Eph. 2:3 says those who have been quickened were "by nature children of > wrath". One cannot be both a sheep and "children of wrath", which is > precisely what Christ called the religious leaders in John 8:44. > > The elect/non-elect categories are eschatological and soteriological, but > the text does not always account for those categories "phenomenally". > What > happens in time and space (what can be seen) is as much a part of the text > as what happens in eternity (what cannot be seen). To force all of the > phenomenal language into the eternal categories is eisogesis, IMHO. > Phenomenally, the unsaved are *goats* until they become *sheep*, > regardless > of their election before time. To always speak of them as *sheep* is to > do > more than the text does in many places. > > -- > Pastor Chad Richard Bresson > Clearcreek Chapel > Springboro, OH > http://breusswane.blogspot.com > > > > On 3/28/06, H Dorrington <hjdinfl@...> wrote: >> >> What Scripture reference tells us that goats rather than lost sheep >> become >> sheep of the fold? >> >> Harry >> >> Chad Richard Bresson <breusswane@...> wrote: >> Lost sheep are present goats who will be future sheep. And in the case of >> the churches the NT writers are writing to, those future sheep that are >> present goats are professing Christians. >> >> Pastor Chad Richard Bresson >> Clearcreek Chapel >> Springboro, OH >> http://breusswane.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "H Dorrington" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 10:44 PM >> Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons >> >> >> > "And it's not true that goats will always be goats." >> > >> > There are the sheep, the lost sheep, and goats. >> > This is why, for example, in Matt 15, our Lord replies to the >> > Canaanite woman that He was "sent only to the lost sheep of the house >> > of >> > Israel" >> > >> > Harry >> > >> > Chad Richard Bresson >> wrote: >> > It's not novel. It's historically reformed. Moo is merely an example of >> > how most reformed commentaries handle Hebrews and James. >> > >> > And it's not true that goats will always be goats. Professing sheep are >> > constantly being pressed to make sure that their profession is a real >> one. >> > >> > Pastor Chad Richard Bresson >> > Clearcreek Chapel >> > Springboro, OH >> > http://breusswane.blogspot.com >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "H Dorrington" >> > To: >> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:29 PM >> > Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons >> > >> > >> >> Lol, that is what always puzzled me about this novel view. Goats will >> >> always be goats. The sheep are the chosen ones, some have realized >> their >> >> new birth and others will. No point in warning goats. >> >> >> >> Harry >> >> >> >> Steve Fuchs wrote: >> >> Chad, >> >> >> >> I'm just curious your thoughts. >> >> >> >> What's the point of warning goats? >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Chad Richard Bresson" >> >> >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:08 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [soundofgrace] Acts 6 and deacons >> >> >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "H Dorrington" >> >>> > Oh yes, the passage that tell us that the goats make great >> >>> > teachers! >> >>> > Not. >> >>> > It is rather describing those who are spiritual "babes" in Christ . >> >>> >> >>> I disagree. In giving them the benefit of the doubt, he is still >> holding >> >>> out the possibility that they are in danger of neglecting their >> >>> salvation. >> >>> What looks like a babe in Christ, if it never grows, is an imposter >> >>> (Heb. >> >>> 6:6-8 - same thought, same context). If they stay "dull of hearing" >> will >> >>> "end up being burned" (Heb. 6:8). >> >>> >> >>> The contrasts of the warning passages are almost exclusively, through >> >>> the >> >>> whole of the NT, between sheep and goats and almost never between >> >>> categories >> >>> of Christians. Those "categories" just don't exist. >> >>> >> >>> Pastor Chad Richard Bresson >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ >> > countries) for 2¢/min or less. >> > -- >> > Read the Sound of Grace pages at >> > http://www.soundofgrace.com >> > >> > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... >> > >> > To view our online archive go to our web page at >> > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Read the Sound of Grace pages at >> http://www.soundofgrace.com >> >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... >> >> To view our online archive go to our web page at >> http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! >> Messenger with Voice. >> -- >> Read the Sound of Grace pages at >> http://www.soundofgrace.com >> >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... >> >> To view our online archive go to our web page at >> http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace >> >> >> > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > -- > Read the Sound of Grace pages at > http://www.soundofgrace.com > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > soundofgrace-unsubscribe@... > > To view our online archive go to our web page at > http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > >